More Than Anxiety

Ep 125 - Balancing Faith and Science to Ease Anxiety with Dr. John Page

• Megan Devito • Episode 125

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In this episode, I’m chatting with Dr. John Page about the deep connection between spirituality and managing anxiety—something I know so many of us wrestle with. 

We’re breaking it all down with personal stories, fresh perspectives, and tools you can actually use to manage anxiety and find peace. Here’s what we dive into:

  • The difference between religion and spirituality (and why that matters).
  • How anxiety can show up in faith-based spaces.
  • Why accepting anxiety as part of life is a total game-changer.
  • The power of forgiveness and how it shifts everything for YOU, not them.
  • How prayer, meditation, and positive vibes can help you heal.
  • Learning to stay present and appreciate your own limits without guilt and struggling for control.

If you’re ready to stop overthinking, feel calm, and actually enjoy your life again this episode is for you.

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Megan Devito:

Welcome to the More Than Anxiety Podcast. I'm Megan Devito and I help ambitious women break out of the anxiety cycle that keeps them frustrated and stuck. Get ready for a lighthearted approach that will change what you think, how you feel and what you believe about yourself. This podcast is full of simple steps, a lot of truth talk and inspiration to take action, so you walk away feeling confident, calm and ready to live. Let's get to it.

Megan Devito:

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 125 of the More Than Anxiety podcast. As always, I'm super excited for you to be here with me today and for you to meet Dr John Page. He is a former minister, former pastor, and he has so many good things to share with you today about religion and spirituality, and stress and anxiety and how it all comes together and how you can actually use all of that to your benefit to feel really good and to be successful and to feel loved and to experience some grace. So I can't wait to hear what you have to say. But before we get started, go ahead and tell people about yourself, what you do and who you are.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, Megan, good to be with you, Good to be with your audience. Hello everyone, Glad that you can welcome me into your day with this podcast. I'm thankful for Megan to bring us all together. I was a former pastor for about 23 years or so and left about two and a half years ago. I'm actually now a technical writer for a technology firm. That's what I do for my pay the bills money. But I do coaching for spiritual professionals on the side and spiritual is a big word and I'm sure we'll unpack some of that in this podcast. But I'm here to help you with what I can.

Megan Devito:

I think that's a great place to start. Actually, I think there's so much. There seems to be a lot of friction out there and maybe I like to blame everything on the pandemic and it's not all the pandemic's fault. But let's just talk about the difference between how do you move from being a pastor to spiritual, and how do those things crisscross, like what is spirituality versus being a pastor, being a minister of being religious, all of those things.

Dr. John Page:

In case someone's like, I don't know the difference yeah, a lot of people use religion and spirituality in the same way. To me, religion is something that's systemized. It's been created for a specific purpose, which means it's human-made, man-made usually emphasis on the man-made of all that. For religion, think of church, synagogue, mosque, any sort of organized system around the divine, however you want to define that, and that can span any number of religions all around the world. Right, you can name probably half a dozen off the top of your head, but if you ask someone about their spirituality, it becomes a lot more personal and a lot more subjective to that person. So your spirituality let's say we both went to church, let's say we were both into religion. We went to the same exact church at the same exact time. Your spirituality, however, would be very unique and personal to you and would be very different from mine.

Dr. John Page:

The spirituality of who we are is what drives us inside. It's where we're getting our energy from. That is, it is internal, but it's also beyond us, right. it's bigger than us. And so I use the word spiritual because that resonates with more people. You mentioned religion. Just mentioning religion probably might have had some of your listeners ramping up their anxiety already, like, oh my God, who's he going to talk about? Because when we hear religion, we think about the worst of it, right, all the bad things that have been done in the name of a religion of some nature whatever, from the crusades to cults to on and on and on. Spirituality, though, is where the beauty is. It's like take all the crap from religion, and when you get left with the beauty, that's where spirituality is found.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, I love that, and I'm sure there were some people that were like I'm not sure this episode's for me and they were ready, don't stop right now. There's going to be a lot of good things in here.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, there's some good stuff, but if you weren't religion and you're ready to bail.

Dr. John Page:

Hold on a minute, that's right, that's right.

Megan Devito:

I think that's really my hope for this episode is to be able to make people be like oh wait a second.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, I mean you asked about me being a pastor. I left because it was time I had put in a lot of years. It was causing me a lot of stress that was affecting me in a lot of years. It was causing me a lot of stress that was affecting me. But mainly I left because there was a lot of political idolatry going on that was off message, off of mercy, off of grace, off of love, and I just didn't want to be the public face of that. I would have anxiety all throughout the day because of what I had to deal with. That wasn't in line with my values, my personal understanding of God, my personal understanding of grace and mercy, and so I just had to get out, and it took by six months for me to kind of detox from that, that amount of anxiety, and the further I get from that, the less anxious I am.

Megan Devito:

Wow, this is a big deal and I mentioned to you briefly before we before I hit record on this, we were talking a little bit before we started talking to you guys that in my personal history with anxiety, where, like growing up with the anxiety disorder, one of the things that I heard so often from my mom and my grandma two people who loved me like crazy, who did take me to church, who gave me that foundation and they would say, megan, you've got to just give this to God. And my answer was like, yeah, you don't even get it. Like that does not work, like that is absolute garbage. I would lay in bed and like beg and pray and cry and just be like, look, you got to take this away from me or just kill me because I can't do this. Yeah, and it never worked.

Megan Devito:

So, coming from that perspective where I'm like obviously I'm doing it wrong, I'm terrible at praying or I wouldn't be this anxious person anymore, I think that that's pretty relevant for a lot of people, especially this place where we are, where anxiety disorders are at an all time high. Everything from little kids to elderly folks, they're all dealing with this and we're, at the same time that we're seeing this drop in church attendance, yep, and for me personally I'm like, yeah, like I get it, I still go to church. But that wasn't making me less anxious.

Megan Devito:

So when you left and there was like an anxiety detox. Tell me more.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, I mean there's on average over the last several years they've kind of averaged it out there's about one point two million people leaving the church in some way every year, and there's a whole lot of reasons for that. But I look at it as people are not finding the answer they want, and so you know well-meaning people, they're trying to help you with what you're talking about anxiety and they just want to, they just trying to help you, right. I think it comes from a sincere place and you know the answer for spiritual questions, right, you just pray. You pray and things happen and sometimes they do.

Dr. John Page:

But what I found, whether it's anxiety or some other thing that you're dealing with or struggling with, is that it can be a part of who you are. There shouldn't be guilt and shame associated with it. Right, it's not any different than somebody dealing with some other struggle. They would love for it not to be in their life. They would love for the you know, for it not to present itself to them at the face of every day. Right, but it is. It's a part of their day, it's a part of their life. And when you have shame attached to it or guilt, false guilt, really. That well you know, Megan, you just didn't pray hard enough. That's not helpful. That is not helpful at all. In fact, it can be harmful. It hurts, yeah Right. So now, not only are you anxious, you're hurt by the place where you need to find peace and grace. Yeah.

Megan Devito:

And feeling like you're not good at it when you're like well. I don't even know how to do this, like who taught me how to do this anyway?

Dr. John Page:

Yeah right, like how can I, how can it be a failure at prayer? It's just talking to God, I mean, come on, and so that that kind of gets built up over time and it builds a resistance.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, absolutely it does.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, absolutely it does yeah. And so you know, you mentioned when I left, I had a a decrease in anxiety. I think some of it was environment. Uh, this wasn't around all of the, the stresses and the triggers and the people. In some regards, that would cause me to to get anxious, Right.

Dr. John Page:

Where I would, oh, I've got to worry about. Well, I don't have any of that on my plate anymore, yeah, so some of it was just removing a lot of the influences that would bring that anxiety up for me. And it's not to say I don't get anxious anymore, it's just measurably lower right. And because I've been out of that that anxious state that was 24, 7 practically for, yeah, two, two and a half years or so, I found I can kind of recognize when that anxiety is going to start bubbling up and like, oh, I need to. I'm not perfect at it, but if I can recognize it, I can kind of shift, I can kind of, you know, absorb it a little better. You know so that it's not, it's not so debilitating. It's not so, oh my gosh, my day is blown. Now, maybe it's just the last hour was blown. Yeah, I'll take an hour over 24 hours gone, yeah, yeah.

Megan Devito:

I love that you said that, because that's one of the things that I like people to understand. They come talk to me about coaching and they're like I don't want to feel anxious anymore. I'm like I can't really tell you that's never going to happen, because you're a human, Like I hope that some days you do, because that means you love something and it's important to you. Yeah, and I think that that's such a big deal for us to be able to say it's okay If you feel anxious. There's a big difference between feeling anxious for weeks on end and an hour and an hour. Yeah, for sure, you can do an hour. It's not that big of a deal.

Dr. John Page:

Yes, well and there's, you know, tremendous harm has been done when people in places of authority in the religious arena have said stuff. Like you know, anxiety is a sin. Well, Right, Wow, Just, there's a whole lot of words. I can't say on your podcast as to what I think about that, but you know they're usually found in R-rated films, if you get my drift. So yeah. That's just. Wow. Anxiety is not bad, it's just a thing, and I'm not saying that to lessen it, it's just a thing that you deal with.

Dr. John Page:

You have uh yeah

Megan Devito:

like I think that's totally valid.

Megan Devito:

I think that we can lessen it and I think that part of the reason so many people are is because we're giving it. So, yes, it's important to solve for it, to figure out what works for you, but the more attention we give it, it's like feeding the monster, right. It's sort of like giving gremlins food. After midnight they're gonna turn into the green gremlin. We don't want that one, we just want Gizmo right you are not an 80s kid, I'm sorry, just go watch the movie. But um, but it is. It does not deserve as much attention as it demands

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, I mean people can be, uh, less of a perfectionist than they were, or they can be less of a worrior, or they can be less anxious than they were or less, whatever, right. But again, that that intersection of spirituality and anxiety, uh, is such that it's been, it has been it, it can be, it doesn't have to be, but it can be and has been for some people been made to make them feel bad. Yeah, like if you, if you were really a believer in God, or if you really had faith, you wouldn't be anxious. Well, that doesn't have anything to do with anything. And if you look at some scripture, there are several people in scripture who, they were plenty anxious, all over the place. Yeah, so that doesn't hold water. I mean it's just not true. Let me just say it. It's not true.

Megan Devito:

So I like that you brought up faith, because I think that's one of the things that I have. I've always been a wrestler, right, and I once had had a pastor that told me that God likes wrestlers. And I'm like, well, thank goodness for that, because that's who I am. I am the like what if this, what if that? Kind of person. Yeah, I'm always trying to find the right answer, but I think that when looking back at the things that I now know I was doing wrong or whatever, back in that place where I'm like you don't understand, I'm praying my head off. And then you talked about you know well, anxiety is a sin. What if I'm doing it wrong? I 100% was doing it wrong because I was so focused on making it go away and not, and I think that I like as odd as this might sound, I think the one thing that has brought me full circle back to my church has been reading about quantum physics.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah.

Megan Devito:

So weird, which I know that people are like, oh, she's going to hell now

Dr. John Page:

No, no, no, it's, it's, it's.

Megan Devito:

I'm like listen, there's a lot of crisscross here, yeah there is and I was focusing on what I didn't want.

Dr. John Page:

Y eah, I mean, science says they've been able to measure all the way back 13.87, 13.78 billion years ago. They can measure it through radiation and so forth, to the moment of the big bang, through quantum physics, quantum mechanics, right, yeah, yeah. Well, that's just mind blowing that we have that much intelligence and curiosity to figure that out, right, right. And so if you think about all the billions and billions of years and scenarios and accidents and events and decisions and choices and movements and so forth that led us to this moment right here where we are, holy cow, that's pretty amazing. I mean, it can fill us with some gratitude and some thankfulness and just a wee bit of awe. Right, yeah, and so what I've come to find for myself is that, if I can accept what is right before me oh man, I'm in an anxious moment Okay, we'll accept it Instead of trying to fight against it, just do a little mental, spiritual jujitsu and just kind of embrace it and like, okay, let's move with it, let's move with this. Yeah, I like that, let's accept it for what it is, which is this moment right now. And maybe this moment of anxiety lasts longer than I would really want it to last. Yeah, but it will kind of pass me by at some point, right, because I've learned ways to deal with it, or there's some steps I can take, or a mantra, or breathing exercise or something that can help me lessen the effect of it than what it had on me, say, last year or last month or last week, month or last week.

Dr. John Page:

Well, that's in and of itself is spiritual action, because you're cooperating with what's inside you and that what is beyond you. Well, that's spirituality. It doesn't have to be god. You can call it the universe, you can call it fate, you can call it energy. I mean, all that works and if you really think about it, that moment right before the Big Bang, which is the closest that scientists will come to that there's a God. If you think about all the energy it took for the Big Bang to happen, that's energy with a big E. Ok, so let's say God's energy. Then yeah, well, if you're cooperating with the energy that's coming at you in your day, that's spirituality. Yeah, you're engaged in a spiritual action as you deal with anxiety that comes up.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, I love this, like the hold. I could go on forever, so I love this First of all there are people probably listening to this. They're like but the earth is only 2000 years old, stop it. No, you can actually intertwine science and religion very easily. I mean, the big bang bang. There was light. Let there be light. Maybe you can make it all. It's a thing, right? Yeah, I don't. I don't have a.

Dr. John Page:

I don't have a problem with science and creation and all that. To me it doesn't matter how it happened that it happened. Yeah, I think that points to God a higher power, a higher energy, for sure.

Megan Devito:

Right, something doesn't just explode out of nowhere.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, yeah, well, because what? Anyways, that's a lot of philosophy and everything else, but that idea that you can use that energy and really to kind of combine, like, okay, what am I focusing on? And you know, when we're talking about anxiousness in particular, and what we're focusing on if we look at it from a whether you want to call it biblical or I'm sure it's in the Quran or anything else, where it says do not worry, do not worry, do not worry. What? 365 times in the Bible or something like that. You know, when you are refocusing on what's happening to me in the present, right now, you're, you're following that rule, and that is, I think, where a lot of people trip up is that they think there's some magic spell or God's going to like zap them with something that's going to make all of these things go away. Yeah, but, but into that?

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, and regardless of what the you know, the religious texts or whatever that you're using, uh, the fact that it that it has to say do not worry, should give us a big clue that worrying is part of the human condition. Right, because we're finite and we see things around us that are way infinite and beyond our control. And so if something is beyond our control, the human condition says I must control that and I can't. And because I can't, therefore I will worry about it because it's bigger than me.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, and that's a hard thing to do for sure, especially because when you're looking for control and you realize that you don't really have it, it will make you feel incredibly anxious. So kind of leaning into that idea that then what do we lean into? And spirituality is there for that.

:

Yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the question for people, uh, that you know they would need to ask for themselves is what is it that's beyond you? And that's why I brought up all those different synonyms. For a lot of people, for most people, it's God, some understanding or concept of God, right? Some people refer to that as higher power. Some people refer to that as just the universe. I know a few people. They use "the source right, their source of what they depend on. But the common theme through all of that is it's bigger than us, it's beyond us, it's outside of us. It's not just me. And if you can tune into that, if you can tap into that idea, that concept, that theory, that belief, that faith, you're halfway there because it's gotten you outside of yourself.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and I think that it definitely from growing up in a church setting. But even for people who didn't grow up in that setting, the idea that we make ourselves feel so important oh my gosh, you know what about this? What about you know what's happening in my life? All of these things. I sometimes can't wrap my brain around the idea that there's not something bigger than me, because surely I am not in charge. Like you don't want that, trust me, I am not the hand that rocks the cradle, and I get a lot of comfort in realizing that. No, it's okay, there's something bigger than me going on here. But how do you explain that for people who maybe are like I'm not sure I get it.

Dr. John Page:

Well, I'll have them look at things like nature or science, I mean, which are things they can tangibly kind of get a hold on. You know, how did this come to be? How does this happen and not this happen? Um, how does this weather pattern occur? Where did it come from?

Dr. John Page:

Something that's uh, we're on the beach, look at the ocean, that's pretty massive. Let's get your, let's get our head around the ocean and how the waves work. In such a way, and because the waves work in this kind of way, it affects how the moon works and the moon works with the waves and okay, well, that's bigger than you, right? So if something is like that and it's bigger than you, then what else is beyond that? And that kind of gets them to thinking hmm, it's not just me, I really am just one little speck of sand on the seashore.

Dr. John Page:

And you know, I mean look at the Milky Way. I mean, if you can, if you can honestly look at the Milky Way with no, no lights around. You're out in the middle of the desert, whatever, no light pollution, and you can look up and look at the Milky Way and not think even just for a millisecond. Wow, whoa, yeah, I mean the, the, the feeling of awe you really can't experience, awe in its true understanding, just wow. That literally takes your breath away and not have some sense that there's something bigger than you out there.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and it takes the pressure off, I think, for people who want to maybe retreat back into whether you want to call it skepticism. Sometimes I think skepticism is safety for people like me who want to be right or wrong Like you. Just tell me the right way and I'm good with it.

:

but also from this place of fear and hurt and um apprehension.

Dr. John Page:

Well, I mean, certainty is kind of the enemy of tolerance, right I mean you. If you have faith, there's going to be some doubt in there. I mean, there's going to be some mystery in there. And if you're certain about something I'm not so sure what it is you believed in in a way, if you're that certain, then where is the faith, where is the mystery to it? Where is the awe to it? Where is the beyond myself to it?

Dr. John Page:

Right, right. So

Megan Devito:

Yeah,, certainty is a funny thing. Love that, because there's no. I think that what I want people to understand and this whole thing, is that there's not necessarily a right or wrong answer, and for me that in itself was incredibly freeing. And I still well, I I'll still wrestle with it. You know, be like, well, what if I'm doing it wrong? Okay, well, what, what would be right? And that really goes back to this idea of when you're anxious and a lot of people will get anxious about doing it wrong or trying to be perfect or where did I mess up? Or things like that If just being able to say, what if everything is going? You know what if there is a hand or an energy or you know another, something bigger than you, that if you can lean into that and say, hey, you know what, I'm doing my best

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, yeah.

Megan Devito:

And I'm going to have to, that whole idea of letting go isn't saying, well, I guess everything's out. It's like wait a second, I don't have to be in control.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a level of acceptance, right, not just acceptance of self, but an acceptance of what is happening right now before me, because, uh, 10 minutes ago that's gone. It's gone forever. We can't recreate it. Uh, we can go back and rerecord it and, you know, put something in, but that moment it's gone, it is. We don't need to rehearse the past anymore. It's not going to change anything. It's it's already done and gone with.

Dr. John Page:

But if we have a level of acceptance with, with who is before me, right With what is before me, there's a, there's a strength in that that says, okay, I'm in this moment. I'm not thinking five steps ahead of what might happen or what could happen or what I think will probably happen. Maybe I'm in the moment right now. I'm in this moment, right now with Megan, we're having this conversation. This is good, this is positive, but you know, my daughter's on the way home from work and she may have a car wreck and I'm not in that moment. I'm in this moment, right now, I'm accepting what is before me, I'm accepting who is before me, and then I'm in the next moment. Oh my gosh, we just had a good moment and then, oh my gosh, then I'm in a new moment and we're still in a good moment and you know you can build a lot of those good moments into a pretty good day.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and it's good that you went from, I like that you bridged that from the past to the future, because a lot of people do go over and just like ruminate over everything that they've said or thought or done in the past. But a whole lot of us anxious folks are also really worried about, yes, existential things like the climate and everything else. But yeah, my kids are driving and I, every time they get in the car, I'm like white knuckling it if I sit around and think about it, but the second I'm not thinking about it. They're fine, and I think that's really important to say. Like you know, you're right in that moment, right now, everything's okay and if you have to go second by second by second, that means you're doing it right.

Dr. John Page:

Well, and it sounds, it sounds tedious, like I'm really supposed to pay attention to like every single second of my day. I'm like, well, you kind of do that already, right, you just don't focus on the fact that you're focusing on every second of the day, you're thinking about this and whatever, but you're going through your day as it happens to you, yeah, which means, uh, I had an, I had an appointment, uh, for later today, and she sent me a message and it got canceled. Oh well, that threw the whole day off, yeah, but did it? I mean, did it really throw the whole day off, right, or did it just open up some time that? Oh my gosh, I can take a call from this other person who I really need to talk to, mm. Hmm, well, I was able to do that without throwing off my whole day because I just accepted what had just happened. Yeah, I didn't ask for the message to come my way. I didn't ask for her to get sick and have 104 temperature and cancel it. I didn't ask for any of that, but it just landed in my lap for this day, totally beyond my control, just came to my day.

Dr. John Page:

Appointments canceled, oh crap. Or well, okay, that's what it is, that's all that it is. She didn't cancel because she hates me. She didn't cancel because she hates me. She didn't cancel because she didn't want to talk to me and all the other thoughts that I would have had, say, years ago, I, I just accepted what it was. Yeah, she canceled because she's sick, that's it. There was no other meaning. There's no other reason. She didn't lie, that's it, okay, okay.

Megan Devito:

Okay, this is good. I started listening to. I love Mel Robbins, but I feel like everyone loves Mel Robbins. But I started listening to Let them the other day in my car, and there's if you don't know the foundation of this book or if you've never listened to Mel Robbins, you should definitely do that. But the book is around that same topic where you can sit there and say, well, they shouldn't have done this and I should have done that, and this was supposed to happen and this needs to happen. Or you can say let them. But I think that the second part is better, because there are some things. I started thinking about this with the wildfire, wild fires recently. Like let them burn, that's a big but "them.

Megan Devito:

I don't know that, I have the power for that Right.

Dr. John Page:

And that's horrible, horrible situation.

Megan Devito:

Um, and I have a client and a really good friend who are out there who just had to leave their houses and for them to be able to say, let them. I don't know if I could do that Like I don't, but the other side of that is, let me.

Megan Devito:

I can't, I can't do anything about this. So let me go be safe. Let me take my things. Let me, you know, help others. Let me deal with this in the way that I need to and that it takes that power away from them so that you don't have to. And for me personally that works really well. With what do I need to be managing for my teenagers? Or when somebody cancels on me and I start to think, oh, it's because they didn't want to talk to me, they don't want to do this, let them cancel. Let me find something else to do yeah, yeah, I mean I can't do.

Dr. John Page:

I can't some big event, right, wildfire, disaster, stuff again out of our control, so far out of our control. It's really not even funny at all. Right, right, I can't do a, b, c, d, e, f about that, like not in any way shape or form. But I can do G and H and I might be saying a prayer for the firefighters that they have. They have energy, maybe that's sending a donation, but I, I can do nothing about stopping the wildfires or stopping some major event. I can't do anything about it. Okay, well, that's an acceptance, I'm accepting I'm limited in my power. Well, I don't want to do that, so I'm gonna. I'm accepting I'm limited in my power, I'm limited in my ability to do this or that. Yeah, and it's not a downer, it's actually freeing, it's actually freeing because I don't have to save the whole world.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, I don't have to feel like, oh my gosh, I'm not doing anything about. Name a big issue, name a big topic, right, okay, nobody said you had to, nobody said that you had to go solve that problem. But if it's of interest and it pricks at your heart that you feel like you need to do something, okay, well then, find us something that you can do. There's somewhere. You may have to go through the alphabets 39 times, but you'll find it in like double L, you'll finally realize you can do that.

Dr. John Page:

That's what I can do.

Dr. John Page:

That's it, okay, right, yeah, so that acceptance, the understanding of our limitations, that's a big deal in my world. Especially coming from the position that I used to be in, where everything revolved, I was a decision maker. You know, I say this and we do that, okay, well, I'm not in that position anymore. Nobody gives a rip about what I think. I don't have to make a decision about anything, right? Well, that's freeing, and it helped me see, oh my gosh, how much I took on myself because I was in a title or position that I had to solve it. No, I don't have to solve. Yeah, I may need to do something, but I don't have to do all that.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, there's a, I want to circle back to my brain going in so many different directions right now, but I want to circle back to the idea of thoughts and prayers because that gets the biggest eye roll in the world right now, doesn't it? Like, thoughts and prayers? Like we almost use it as like a bad hashtag, like hashtag blessed.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah Well, I mean it's what people are conditioned to say.

Megan Devito:

Right

Dr. John Page:

I'm going to say you got to say, you got to say prayers, because there's a lot of people who pray

Megan Devito:

Right

Dr. John Page:

You've got tosay we're praying for you. Right, because you know, If you say you're not praying for you because, wow, what an ogre you are. If you don't say that, why would you not? Yeah, but for a lot of people it's like, well, you know, if you say prayers and that's going to leave a lot of people out because they don't pray, or they don't believe in prayer, or they think it's wacko or whatever. So we're going to say good thoughts, right? So thoughts and prayers that becomes the phrase.

Dr. John Page:

So if you say our, thoughts and prayers are with you, are with you. It means we're thinking of you, we're praying for you, or maybe we're doing both, or maybe we're doing neither, but at least we're saying we are, whatever. So, yeah, it's a kind of conditioned response. It's like someone you know posts something, or you hear something that a loved one of theirs has died. Right, a loved one has died. I'm so sorry for your loss, right? It's not that you're insincere, it's just. That's just kind of what you say. Now you have another version of that. I express my condolences to you. My heart sits with yours in this tough time, whatever you want to say, but, yeah, it's become the expected thing to say, like, you have to say it. Yeah, if you, even if you don't mean it, you have to say it. And if you do mean it and you really are thinking of the person or the situation and you really are praying, then you're going to say that anyway. Yeah.

Megan Devito:

And in that idea of God or universe or energy or spirit, when we talk about that or we talk about quantum physics which I always think is a fun little twist on all of this is, the thoughts and prayers are energy, right, and if we want to talk about, you know, if we talk about one person praying, maybe that seems like okay, well, good for you, you go pray for somebody. But what happens when everybody prays, whether they're praying or meditating or anything else, and the changes that we know that can happen in that, I mean, I mean if you think about thoughts and prayers and they right, that's a, that's a positive energy you're sending out, right.

Dr. John Page:

Right, I'm sending good thoughts to you, I'm sending positive vibes to you, I'm sending uplifting prayers to you, where all that is, that's up, that's good, that's positive, that's all energy in some way. I don't see how that can be bad. No, now will you. Will you see some effect of that? Maybe, maybe, but maybe the effect was in you. Yeah, that's not bad either. Right, whether it has an effect on the person or the situation or the scenario you're praying for or sending good thoughts towards, that may occur. You may tangibly see some of that. I think I've seen prayers answered in a good way for people. I've also seen prayers like I don't know if that worked or not, I don't know if he heard me, but it did something in me, it got me outside of myself. Where I'm sending out good energy from me to someone else. Yeah, I don't see how that's bad.

Megan Devito:

No, and I think that when you are looking at the energy inside your nervous system, when you're anxious and when you, you know, when you're in that place let's say, someone passed away and you're you're praying for them you're regulating your nervous system. Yeah, you really are. I mean, whether it's because you're closing your eyes and you're shutting your nervous system. Yeah, you really are. I mean whether it's because you're closing your eyes and you're shutting off the outside world, or, you know, maybe your prayer includes singing or humming, and we know what that does to our nervous system.

Megan Devito:

It's so, so important. So I have another thing I want to ask you about, and I know that I told you I wasn't going to, like, take a whole bunch of your time and I'm probably already over, but I got to ask about forgiveness. Yeah, yeah, because some people are like absolutely not, I don't have to forgive anybody for anything.

Dr. John Page:

Uh, and they don't, you do not have to forgive anybody.

Dr. John Page:

Uh, but here's the. Here's the kicker you may want to think about. Okay For you, for your audience. Just to consider this uh, most of the time forgiveness isn't about absolving the other person of whatever it is they've done to hurt you. Okay, most of the time, forgiveness is for you. Yeah, I like to. I like to have people picture a boat in a harbor, right, and it's anchored down and you get to anchor all the way down in the seabed and, okay, well, try to leave the harbor with the anchor still down. You're not going to go very far. You may rip your boat apart. You'll do damage. Well, that's what unforgiveness is.

Dr. John Page:

Unforgiveness or forgiveness is letting yourself go from that person. It's releasing yourself from that person and the hurt that they've done. It doesn't excuse what they've done. It doesn't cover over any of that. It gets you free from them so that you can sail out into a new ocean of possibilities and the waves of pleasure and goodness and so forth and all that you want to take that analogy to okay, right, right, it untethers you from that hurt.

Dr. John Page:

It untethers you from that person who still is taking up ownership in your mind and your heart because you haven't forgiven. So saying I forgive that person for the harm they've done to me and you may have to do that a lot, but as you continue to forgive that person and untether yourself and unbreak those chains and links in the anchor that are holding you down and holding you back, I've seen people experience a great deal more freedom, a great deal more health, like it helps their body, their physical body and their mind and their spirit, and eventually sometimes it's quickly, sometimes most of the time it takes a little bit of time. It's a slow kind of process, but the more that I've seen in people's lives and in my own life is I've practiced forgiveness towards someone they don't have control in my life anymore that's so important they don't have any.

Dr. John Page:

They don't have any power in my life anymore. Do I still have hurt from what they did? Yes, they hurt me back then, but I don't have to keep rehearsing that hurt because, as I forgive and I keep practicing the forgiveness, I'm practicing healing, I'm practicing getting better, I'm practicing coming to a new place of health and so that that person doesn't have power over me anymore. That's what I would, that's what I would want people to consider.

Dr. John Page:

Forgiveness is really for you.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and it's really about letting go of that thought that keeps replaying in your minds, because I know this feels impossible and you might not believe it's true, but you really do get to choose your thoughts. Guys, you don't choose all of your thoughts, but you get to choose which ones you want to pay attention to and hang on to. And when you forgive someone and when you let go and when you start trusting and when you believe in something bigger than yourself, all of those things are redirecting your brain from the stuff that you don't want to feel and experience. You don't want to feel the way you feel, and when you use that feeling in your body to realize that oh, wait a second, it's time for me to check my thoughts. What am I actually focusing on? That makes every difference in the world, and that's so important.

Dr. John Page:

Just because a thought passes by your mind doesn't mean you have to invite it in for coffee.

Megan Devito:

No, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means you're a human. We've all got some wacky thoughts at some point or other.

Dr. John Page:

You can just see the thought and go, wow, that's pretty interesting, wow, that's kind of weird. Then watch it. Pass on by.

Dr. John Page:

You don't have to reach out and go whoa what is this?

Dr. John Page:

You don't have to reach out. What is this? Let's say you don't have to do that, you can just watch it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, it does not mean anything about you as a person. No, it just means that you have a brain, and brains can go really, really dark and really crazy and really silly sometimes. So, yeah, so good, I think there's just so. I could go on and on and on, but I appreciate your time today

Dr. John Page:

And hey, you know this could be, this may be part one of a part three series, who knows?

Megan Devito:

I'm into it. Yes, let's do it. We could make a whole channel, yeah.

Dr. John Page:

You know what? Look, this is your podcast. You can do it how you want.

Megan Devito:

I can do whatever I want. I love that. So tell people, though, where can they find you? How do you serve people? Tell them, like, how they can connect they want to know more.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, I am on linkedin. I'm not on any other social platform, I'm on linkedin.

Megan Devito:

God bless you for that one right there.

Dr. John Page:

Yeah, that lessens a lot of anxiety and stress because I just don't see it. Yeah, uh, yeah, I'm on linkedin, Dr John Page. Uh, you'll see me with a it's a blue banner, I'm sure you'll. If you call it my name, I'm sure it'll come up somewhere. Or just go to Megan's LinkedIn profile and I'm one of her connections. You can connect with me that way. But I do coaching for spiritual professionals, which means if you have some sense of spirituality, I help you use it, not to hide it, and, as my headline says, I help you figure tough shit out using your spiritual I love it.

Megan Devito:

I love it. This has been so much fun. Thank you for spending some time with me today.

Dr. John Page:

You bet this has been energizing Love talking with you.

Megan Devito:

I love it. It's so great.

Megan Devito:

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Before you go, be sure to subscribe and leave a review so others can easily find this resource as well. And, of course, if you're ready to feel calm, to stop overthinking and have a lot more fun, you can go to the show notes, click the link and talk to me about coaching. I'll talk to you soon.