More Than Anxiety

Ep 117 - Chasing External Validation With Erin Washington

• Megan Devito • Episode 117

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This episode is totally different than any episode I've done before. This week, I'm having a coaching conversation with Erin Washington, host of the ThErinpy with Erin Washington podcast. This is the first conversation I've ever had with Erin: no goal setting, no background to coach from, just 3,2,1, GO!

We dive into Erin's journey in building resilience and self-worth while also digging into her past struggles with body image, bulimia and anorexia. From being a D1 soccer player to a successful philanthropist, mom, and podcaster, Erin opens up about her need for external validation and measuring self-worth in how much she checks off her to-do list.

Discover how Erin's experiences led her to empower teenage girls to have body positivity through the Blue Butterfly Foundation, offering hope and healing to those who need it most.

Erin and I go deep into the emotional impact of seeking approval from others, talking about the pressure and expectations of being the oldest daughter, and ask and answering tough questions about her value outside of what she is doing.

This conversation offers tons of valuable insights into embracing who you are beyond your accomplishments and gives you a quick snapshot of what a coaching session might look like for you.

You can connect with Erin on Instagram
or on Threads  and listen to her podcast HERE.

Grab Erin's book, From Pain to Purpose: Finding Meaning in Mess

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Take this quiz to find out what's making you feel so overwhelmed and what you need to do to feel calm, confident, and have more time for fun!



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You know you're overwhelmed, burned out, sick to death of work but also trying to do everyting for everyone at home. TAKE THIS QUIZ to find out why you're so overwhelmed and what to do about it.

Megan Devito:

Welcome to the More Than Anxiety Podcast. I'm Megan Devito and I help ambitious women break out of the anxiety cycle that keeps them frustrated and stuck. Get ready for a lighthearted approach that will change what you think, how you feel and what you believe about yourself. This podcast is full of simple steps, a lot of truth, talk and inspiration to take action. So you walk away feeling confident, calm and inspiration to take action. So you walk away feeling confident, calm and ready to live. Let's get to it. Okay, you guys.

Megan Devito:

Welcome to episode 11 of the More Than Anxiety podcast. I'm super excited that you chose to join me today, because I'm doing something that I've never done before. I am talking with Erin Washington and not just in a normal interview. We're doing a regular coaching session, except not with the backstory that I would normally have with my clients. Usually, when I start with a client, we set goals, we get to know each other in that first hour, really, tell me about what you want, why it's important to you, but not this episode.

Megan Devito:

I am jumping in with two feet to help Erin work through some questions that she has about her life, similarly to what she does on her podcast called ThErinpy, where she brings therapists on and life coaches on to help her work through some issues that she's dealing with so that all of her listeners get the help that they want. It's really the foundation of what group coaching is like. But we're doing it in an hour here on this podcast today. It is so much fun. It was a blast to record with her. Be sure that you find Erin on all the social networks. I'll make sure to put her links in the show notes. Check out her podcast called ThErinpy and really enjoy the episode. It was a fun one for me to make.

Erin Washington:

I am Erin Washington. I'm a mom of two, I'm currently living in Atlanta and I am someone who struggled with body image for 20-ish years and finally got my life together later in life, like after I had my kids. So I ended up writing my first book, called Squats and Margaritas, and it was basically to the woman working out, not seeing results, restricting and depriving herself. I found the formula and it was just living with balance and during the pandemic I was just going live. There was nothing else to do. We couldn't like be out together, so I would say, pour a cocktail, and I'd go live on Instagram and be like what is everybody doing with their kids? Because, Megan, at that time I had a two and a four-year-old and the gyms were closed and the schools were closed and the playgrounds were closed. So I was like what is everybody doing? And it turned into a little talk show and I was able to book like some of the Real Housewives and some bigger guests because they didn't have anything else going on. Like the world was shut down. So it became a little talk show. My only intent was to just inspire and encourage other moms to get through the pandemic, entertainment and, unbeknownst to me, there was a program director in Washington DC at the biggest radio station there watching me every week and one day she called and gave me a show and I never saw a podcast coming. But it was the best thing for me and I found out that I could be vulnerable and help other women.

Erin Washington:

And recently I just noticed a little bit of a pivot in my life and Squats and M argaritas wasn't really my jam anymore. I was like I really don't talk about fitness. It became more, full disclosure, I'm going through a divorce. It went through co-parenting and just finding yourself again, finding your value and your worth and personal growth, and I was like my show is basically therapy. Every week I work through whatever you'd work through in therapy with another vulnerable, authentic guest.

Erin Washington:

I rebranded as ThErinpy with Erin Washington. It's my favorite thing in the world. And then, as an extension of the work that I was doing with body image, I also created a nonprofit for teenage girls that are struggling with body image and self-worth called Blue Butterfly Foundation and right now it's foundation events and my show and never saw it coming as someone who is now inspiring other women, when all I did was struggle with my worth and my body image and everything like that for 20 years. I was able to come out of that pain and find the purpose in it and hopefully help the next woman out of it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, that is awesome. I was actually just looking at your link on your Instagram profile for Blue Butterflies and I'm like, oh, this is such great work. So you have, you said I have a history with body image. Yes, Tell me more about that.

Megan Devito:

What was that like for you?

Erin Washington:

Everything stemmed from soccer. Um, I started playing when I was four and it became my value and my identity and I didn't really realize how much it was until I did all this personal growth work. But we were back-to-back state champions. In high school I was the captain, I played division one college soccer and everybody'd be like where are you going for college? You know it was always oh for here for soccer, for soccer. So, Megan, my sophomore year, um, after I was working my ass off, I was winning fitness competitions I came in like ready to go, I wasn't playing and I wasn't used to that. Like I wasn't used to coming off the field. So, kind of on a whim, in the middle of my sophomore season, I quit and I was like, well, this is bullshit, I'm not playing, I quit. And that is when I realized just how much of my value and identity was tied up in soccer.

Erin Washington:

I fell into bulimia, depression; I was anorexic in high school, to be honest, I was barely eating because I thought thin was like fit for soccer. Like everything was about soccer. When my career was gone, I was still, you know, eating like a college athlete, but no longer training like one. So I put on weight and initially I found bulimia as what I thought would take off the weight, but it actually just made me puffy and bloated and it was something I struggled with for 10 years. I wasn't going to tell anybody about it.

Erin Washington:

Um, I married my husband. Well, I started dating my husband when he was in the height of his career in the NFL. I had no self-worth and was just coming out of bulimia. So I kind of just I think like attached myself to him because he was shiny, and I felt like if I'm with him then I'm shiny. And again, like my body, like we would be at games and I would be like he wants to be with this person, like look at these beautiful women that are. They would just like wait around after the games and I would just like go into my head and just I had no confidence. But I think it really stemmed from the soccer value and identity and being fit for soccer. But I'm also a first- born perfectionist and when you're really driven like that, it can look like a great thing but it can also take a left into an eating disorder.

Megan Devito:

Right it, the whole firstborn thing, especially as a daughter, that is wicked, isn't it? So, yes, me too. I am the oldest, I I am not probably a perfectionist, but definitely, I mean, I think there's a level of assumed responsibility there. Yes, like you're the firstborn, we're going to, first of all, we're going to figure it out with you, and then you're going to be like this shiny, beautiful thing that we made, don't mess up.

Erin Washington:

Nope, Nope, Don't you know what you made me think of too? It's like it's a lot to carry when it's like you're this. I was homecoming queen and prom queen. You can like assess this. You're getting all my background, so you can see why

Megan Devito:

This is great, I love it.

Erin Washington:

I am the way I am and it's like I was homecoming queen and prom queen. So it was like that's a lot to uphold. Like I couldn't like get fat. I had to like uphold that and be that and be this great soccer player and it's like for me to be voted as those things. Like obviously people saw something in me; I had no, I didn't see it in myself and it's like I was like barely eating. I was throwing up my food.

Erin Washington:

It's like anyone that you think has it all or is the girl, like you have no idea what that person is dealing with. Another reason why I started my nonprofit like you're comparing yourself to this person that you think is shiny and you have no idea what she's struggling with to be able to uphold the shiny and it's a lot. And I had three younger sisters and they were all division one collegiate athletes and no one struggled like me. So I put so much into birth order. Like this, everything has to be a certain way and perfect and training twice a day and none of them were like that and all of them had successful college soccer careers. So it's not the way to be and I wish I could turn it off, but I can't. Yeah.

Megan Devito:

So when you say I've put so much in a birth order, tell me more about that. Like, what are you hanging on this birth order? Because there's absolutely validity to it. Right, Like we know, firstborn daughters people should be talking about that, I mean, my mom was a firstborn daughter and that's a whole thing too. But so, yes, there's validity to it. But how much of that are you pinning to yourself?

Erin Washington:

That's good. Yeah, I'm making it my identity. I just can tell when people are talking. They're like everything had to be a certain way and I just I had to be like while they're, because I clearly wasn't and I knew what I was doing in my body and what like. But to appear like you have everything in order and I I just don't with my sister just casual. Like I'm I'm very high strung. I feel like as a person I'm just, and maybe it's not like correct me if that's not, but I'm very particular, and driven like, highly driven. To a fault sometimes. I I hold myself to an unattainably high standard that I will never meet, so that I'm always just kind of like, and none of my sisters had that, so I always just thought that was the firstborn thing.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, Maybe, or maybe it's something that, so, when you so first thing, I have so many questions in my head right now. But one is like when you say, okay, I was a perfectionist and I was thinking like I have to be perfect, I have to do these things, and I'm noticing my, my sisters don't. What was, two things, who was the person you were picturing? Who was perfect, like, where was this thing, that like, this person is who I need to be.

Erin Washington:

That's hilarious. What a fabulous question. Homecoming queen, how about that? And I got it. And I said in my book I would have relinquished both crowns to be able to secure a college, like a strong college soccer career. But I distinctly remember when I was a freshman in high school and the bell would ring and I would pass the homecoming queen and it was just so fast.

Erin Washington:

I was like I just thought she was so cool and then I got that and it, it wasn't anything like it. It wasn't enough. Nothing is enough, it's whatever I think it is. So maybe if I had this amazing soccer career, it would have happened. And then I would be like that's not that, it's not that either. Um, that's what I thought, and everybody looking at me as a homecoming queen. But then I had it and it wasn't what I thought. Like I felt I still didn't feel confident. I didn't find self-confidence until damn near 40 and I got married. Like I started dating my husband at 24, married at 33 and didn't have it. So that's thing, Llike when you're in a relationship and you step into confidence and then step into divorce, just yeah.

Megan Devito:

Cause you're not the same person, right? So I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, okay, I want to be the homecoming queen, like that girl, like she is it. And then you become that and immediately raise the bar, like yes. And then now there's more yes.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, so it's like oh, I was supposed to be homecoming queen, but here I am, that's not it either. So what is it like when you were, so if you go back up like before you were homecoming queen, what did you think the homecoming queen had? Like, what was it about that title that you were like? That's it. That's what she's got Like value, like clout, Like she was.

Erin Washington:

She's the homecoming queen, a title maybe? Okay, and I'm just processing this real time Like I don't know if that's the right. That's what I'm just answering honestly, like she was oh my gosh, she was homecoming queen. But then it was like, whatever. When I got it like you just make the next thing, like I, I'll give you an example with my show. I interviewed Katie Couric. It was the biggest show I had done and it's amazing.

Erin Washington:

Well, this was two years ago. Megan, the, I mean, I was excited for like a day or two, but then it was like who am I going to get next? I can't just it's always the next thing. I can't ever just be satisfied. So I don't know like where it came from, except for birth order, because I have my sisters to compare to. But this driven, nothing is good enough. You, Katie Couric, was a goal for like two years and then I did it, and then it's not like I can like rest on that. It's like who is next? And I'm talking the next day like I can't shut it off this drive yeah, so is that drive?

Megan Devito:

Do you, when you think that drive, is that a good thing or is it a detrimental thing? Because I

Erin Washington:

100% detrimental

Megan Devito:

for you, right Like so for me.

Erin Washington:

That's what I'm saying

Megan Devito:

right Cause it's always one step higher. Yeah, you're not actually chasing clout?

Erin Washington:

I guess not. I don't know what it is Like. I don't. I guess right now I'm like I want my show, If I'm a podcaster, I want the number one wellness podcast in America. Like it can't or it doesn't count that, yeah, it's just not like I don't know if anybody can do it.

Megan Devito:

I hope so. Well, this is so good.

Megan Devito:

I love this

Erin Washington:

Like I can't. I like there's other people like I have a top 1% podcast right now, probably going to say that a couple more times cause I'm very proud of that. But then there's somebody that has a 0.05 Megan. Like that's who you're talking to. I can't. I'm like, oh, they're better ones. Like I'm still not charting. And people be like only like the top 50 chart and there's like a billion, and I'm like, well, I gotta, you gotta, be charting for it to be value, like that. I'm just being completely honest. That is how I live and you know what I think If I'm not go ahead. I think a lot of it came from, like my relationship and not feeling like valued and appreciated and worthy. And now I have a show and I'm showing this is going to be big, because I am worthy and I created this, and I have to show that this is my value. And maybe soccer didn't work out and I thought that was my value, but now this has to work out to show I am worthy, if that makes sense.

Megan Devito:

Yeah. So if we take away the soccer, we take away the homecoming queen, we take away the prom queen, we take away the podcast and we have Erin.

Erin Washington:

I'm a mom. I'm proud of being a mom. I'm a mom.

Megan Devito:

Why do people want to hang out with you? What do people love about you?

Erin Washington:

Here's the other part of this. I am very happy with who I am and confident in my body, Like I am. They want to hang out with me cause I'm fun and I'm a great friend and I do see that. But yeah, it's like I'm not. That's what I feel. I know I'm worthy. I know my show is worthy. I have to show other people. I need external validation. Still, yeah, I know I don't know. Like I hope you can pull that out. Still, yeah, I know I don't know Like I hope you can pull that out.

Erin Washington:

I had a great childhood, so I don't know where there was anything that I haven't, that I'm still holding in my body somewhere. Like could not have been raised better. Two parents in the house, a middle-class family, there's nothing there. And then I was not eating for a while, I was throwing up my food and abusing my body. I don't know where it stems from. Like this has to be perfect. So the outside world feels that I'm perfect and validates oh my gosh, she is perfect. Like it's ridiculous. Um, I'm sorry to anyone else listening to this and shaking your head If you feel this way and you live this way, cause it sucks, but hopefully me working through. It could help you yeah.

Megan Devito:

So let's, you want to play a game?

Erin Washington:

Yeah.

Megan Devito:

I do. So let's slow way down for a second, because when you think about like I have to prove myself, like it's one of these things where I have to. Yes, I know my value, like logically. Logically, I know my value, but whatever it is like that's underneath that, whatever it is that's like, but I need other people to see it too. Yes, so where do you feel that? Like if you were to pause and just say if nobody can see that, where in your body do you feel it? Like? In my chest, yeah, right here, right. So put your hand on that, Just sit with it for a second. And it's one of those things where like, okay, I can feel this. If nobody else sees my value, what emotion is attached to it?

Erin Washington:

And there's, I mean it's such I'm like disappointed

Megan Devito:

Disappointed, okay.

Erin Washington:

What else. Like I'm just I feel disappointed, like if I know that I had a great show today and it is a top 1% podcast, but other people don't know. I'm disappointed that other people don't know, even though I know why do I? It needs to be validated. My love language is words of affirmation. I need people to affirm and validate. Don't buy me a gift, Don't give me a hug. Say the words.

Megan Devito:

Yes, and there's value to that right, like there's value to having somebody affirm, like there's value to having somebody affirm you, but you have to affirm yourself. And I and I wonder if there's a disconnect between these are the things that I know rationally, but part of me is not believing it. Like I do believe these things. Do you believe it?

Erin Washington:

That's what's even weirder. Like you know, people like somebody walks in the room is like oh, I would switch places with her in a second. I wouldn't want to switch with anyone. I love who I am.

Megan Devito:

That's amazing.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, thank you, but I also feel like I think a lot of it has to do with my relationship and it's tricky because yeah, tell me about that. My ex did not sign up for this and I'm not gonna, I don't wanna like, I want you to know so you can assess the situation, business out there. But he was very successful Like 2% of the world make it to the level that he did and had a great career and then retired and I was just kind of on his arm and then I wanted to be a stay at home mom and said that and believed that, Megan. It wasn't like I was like I'm going to say this and then I'm going to flip the switch. But I stepped into profound purpose when I wrote my first book and shared about my bulimia and my depression and other women started saying, oh my God, me too, but I haven't told anyone or like thank you for saying it. And I was like this I found my superpower is vulnerability and being able to just say things and feel okay because I am comfortable in my body. So I'm like I'm going to keep doing it, and the more I. Then it was like a blue butterfly came to my door and I followed the signs and I started my foundation and I know that I'm in alignment and this is exactly what I'm supposed to do.

Erin Washington:

But I need him to say, wow, okay, like right now he's still in. You said you're going to be stay-at-home mom, you're going to do anything else, and now you have a career and you're doing book signings and you're speaking and he's like not that feeling that like he wouldn't have been attracted to this version of me. So I need to show him but it's a, look at how many sales I had, and look at my podcast is charting to show him it was like worth it, like it was the right decision to step into this. And even though I know it is like I will get signs from the universe, like ask for a sign and a butterfly will land on my doorstep, like I know it. I totally know. Yeah, it's like.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, there are more stories that I could share with you, but I have the confirmation myself. I know and I'm not going to stop doing this, but I want him to see, oh, wow, like she is doing it like. And if he doesn't say it, I'm not doing it like. If he doesn't realize that it's a like bigger thing? I don don't. If I do an interview like a TV interview, I need him to watch it. I need somebody to tell him, like Erin was on Good Day Atlanta this morning. Like, does somebody tell Marcus, like I want him to be, like, Wow! Like I need him to validate that I'm worthy. I've somehow made him a more like opinionated like stronger voice than my own, if that makes sense.

Erin Washington:

Like his. His opinion of me

Megan Devito:

Yeah, so his opinion of you at this point. Yes, I know I'm killing it and I have all these signs and everything's going great, but his opinion I need that. So what about before you were with him? Whose opinion did you need then?

Erin Washington:

Ooh, I like this. Um. So I met him at 24. So it was like, right, coming out of college, like college was just a mess, like a quit soccer. I guess the validation of everybody saying I did great everyone in high school knowing that I was going to play Division One college soccer, I needed them to know it. And then I quit. And then I was like, oh, like, who are you now? Like, then I had 10 to 15 years of just mess. Then I came out and I found alignment. But yeah, I would say that the people like who I needed before was like people to know that I was playing division one soccer. I made it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, so in college then or before I was dating him, it was like I need these people to know that I am killing it, Like I am an amazing soccer player. Okay, back it up again, go back to so yeah, let's keep going backwards. So then, like before you were prom queen or homecoming queen, who did you? Who were you? Like these people need to know that, like I am amazing.

Erin Washington:

It was soccer.

Erin Washington:

Soccer had such a like. For some reason I don't know when I made that. Maybe somebody was like Erin's, a great soccer player, and I just held onto that and was like people like me for soccer, like I have to be, because I started varsity as a freshman. Like I came in, I had to, I would not accept anything less. Um, I, somehow I attached my value to my soccer prowess and so that's why it was such a big hit to me when I quit and that was gone. Like I had nothing. I put everything into that. So it was like then, who are you now? Like I couldn't go work out at the athletic complex. I had to go to like the student rec center and that killed me. Like I didn't have that athlete title anymore and shit went downhill.

Erin Washington:

For a long time I was in a relationship that was awful. I tried to validate myself through that relationship and then honestly, like I'd love my husband still, and we were, we've been together 19 years, we're separated, almost divorced, but I do love him. I was very physically attracted to him, but I have to say I'm probably attached myself or was attracted initially because he was shiny and that validated that I was a worthy person, because this person liked me, like I'm self-aware enough to know what happened. I just don't know why I do that.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, my guess, without knowing your story and with only having like a finite amount of time, right, is that somewhere along the line somebody put this like shine, I mean, yes, soccer. I think we see this so often with athletes. We've seen it with Simone Biles, we've seen it with Michael Phelps, we've seen it with all these big athletes that are like and then I wasn't.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, now, what? Now? Who are you? Yeah?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and that's really yeah.

Megan Devito:

Who are you without soccer?

Megan Devito:

Well, yeah, like, if we go like OG Erinn, before you were in soccer.

Erin Washington:

I mean, I did other things. I like danced, I don't know, I, that's very interesting. I want to like talk to my mom and be like what happened with? Did somebody say something, like when did I start being so obsessive about it?

Megan Devito:

Do you remember, like the first thing, that you were like holy shit?

Erin Washington:

No, no it was no, I remember.

Erin Washington:

I remember just being a psycho about it, like I remember Roberto Baggio missed a penalty kick in the World Cup Final. We all watched it together. I was 13 and he missed and I just felt like devastated for him. My family went along with their day, as most people would. I went in the backyard and kick penalty kicks for the rest of the day because, I was like, I am not going to miss a penalty kick when my team depends on me, like obsessive about it.

Erin Washington:

And for me, I think, more soccer, it was more like body, like I needed people to say I look thin and my body, like I, I needed it, was body image, but that, yeah, I, I would like put it around soccer, like I have to be thin, so I'll be, we'll be fast for soccer. Or like, yeah, I don't know, exercise, bulimia, like I, I, when I started eating, I started writing down what I would eat and then go work it off on like a elliptical so that I was like canceling it out. So it's like the obsession, the body validation, like I said in my book, if you're, if I looked skinny or if I felt skinny, I needed someone to confirm that, or it didn't count If someone didn't say wow, you look like you lost weight.

Erin Washington:

It was like yeah

Megan Devito:

, Okay,

Erin Washington:

Disappointing

Megan Devito:

I think that's a good word. And then like so anytime you don't get the validation and it goes back to disappointment. Or is there more there? What else do what else happens, Like if someone doesn't validate me, then I think what? What do you think if they don't validate you?

Erin Washington:

That's a great question, because it's not that I don't think I'm worthy. I know it. And it's not even I know you were saying before like the no, like knowing it intellectually and like feeling it. I feel it, I I don't know Like I. It's not that if they don't say it, I don't, I'm not worthy. It's like this, like like yes, it's like it's like when I I have a notebook and I write things off.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, it's a dopamine hit. If I go to bed and I didn't rock, like I have OCD also, I'm sure you've already picked that up, and I don't cross off all the things on my list. It's like I didn't, like they didn't say that, thought I didn't get a. Yeah, great, I didn't get everything done. I'm not perfect. Like I didn't get the, I had to move it over to the next day. It's not complete. I need things to be like my day. My day is not complete unless someone says which doesn't make sense.

Megan Devito:

II

Erin Washington:

It's like a dopamine hit Like okay, yeah, acknowledge it or it doesn't count, even though I know and I, like I said I wouldn't trade places with any other woman. I do have that. I have that and I did not. I would trade places with any other woman in my twenties and probably most of my thirties, but I have. I love who I am now. I hate that he doesn't see it specifically, um and and I think it is more him because I could get, I could get validation from like, I mean people I don't know, like Instagram or something like oh my God, that was a great interview. It's like he didn't say it Like why doesn't he see me? So it's like you know, it's like not that big of a deal, because did Marcus see it? Did anybody see? If he saw me on TV, like why do I? It doesn't count if it's not his acknowledgement and like affirmation of what I'm doing.

Megan Devito:

I think that that could be the thought that's sticking there, like it doesn't count. If somebody else doesn't acknowledge it, even if I know it, it still doesn't count, which means I don't get to count it. So if somebody else doesn't like, even though I believe it and I know it, it's really like, okay, well, Marcus didn't see it. And maybe in high school it was like, well, if I wouldn't have won homecoming queen, nothing counts. Like if I didn't kick that goal, like when you went outside in soccer, and you're like I will not be the one that screws it up because that's going to count. So, even if you believe it and having to go back to it has to count, though, and what makes it count? I mean, I'm not a therapist.

Erin Washington:

So its the affirmation.

Megan Devito:

Right, but you're just. But that almost takes that Like I really believe it, but it doesn't count. So so, yes, I believe it, but I can't count that one. So I have to...

Erin Washington:

I hear you.

Erin Washington:

I receive that. It's like it could be better. It's like it counts. But if he saw like, okay, I'm going to speak this into existence, I am talking to the producers of live with Kelly and Mark, it would be my biggest thing, cause I usually do like local ones. If, if or when that airs and he doesn't know I was on, it might as well not have been on so he could be like wow, she did it. I need him to be like, because I said I was going to be a stay at home mom and if I'm not doing like big things, it like wasn't the right choice. It wasn't. And not that I'm like leaving my kids in a ditch Megan to go do these things. I'm great mom. But he, I think he sees like you want to be a mom, now you're like career, like I'm not a good, like a shame, almost. Like you said, I feel shame. That's a big one too.

Megan Devito:

Yeah. So here's what happens, right, and this is I mean, when we think about how your, how brains work or how we, how we get stuck in these cycles, what can happen is some things happen. So let's say that you get on, Live with Kelly and Mark, right, so that's just the circumstance. And you go on there and you kill it and it's amazing and they're like holy shit, your life is incredible. They tell you all this, you go on and I haven't thought.

Erin Washington:

Who are they? Who's saying it?

Megan Devito:

Whoever they are. Okay, Mark, let's say they say it right, but he doesn't. Let's say Mark doesn't, Marcus doesn't. Let's say Mark doesn't, so and my thought is, my thought is well, that didn't count. That brings up an emotion, whether it is shame, whether it's disappointment, something like that. So, whatever that that emotion is, causes there to be a like, an action that follows it right. So I do something which means for it might be that well I'm gonna try harder, or I think I got to be on a bigger.

Erin Washington:

re got to be on GMA. That's what I would do.

Megan Devito:

So, yes, so you're always raising the stakes based on that thought, but I just wonder what you would have to think to make it count, Even if nobody else saw it like. What would you have to think to be like...

Erin Washington:

I think it's not even nobody else saw it.

Megan Devito:

I know what I did.

Erin Washington:

It's not even nobody else saw it. It's Marcus. I asked because when you said okay.

Erin Washington:

He said, you did a great job.

Erin Washington:

I like, did you see my face? I was like, well, did he see it? Did someone send him the clip Right? I need him to know I made the right decision. Like you said this.

Erin Washington:

Now you're doing all this stuff and just kind of looks at me like what a disappointment you are like as a wife, like you're, you're, he's like who goes to a book signing during the school week, and I'm like then I'd be like, ah, and then I'm like, wait a minute, you're retired, could you get our children? Like he would make me feel. He's made me have shame about working because I said I wasn't going to. But I truly believe I didn't have confidence. I didn't see anything for myself, definitely didn't see myself ever sharing about my bulimia and stuff, so no one could have seen that coming.

Erin Washington:

But now I know I went through that to write the book, to get a community to help other people to have these conversations and make it that maybe make another woman feel seen and less alone, who isn't willing to say it but is listening to this right now, like, oh my God, yes, and you're not alone and I want to keep doing this and I get the butterfly and it's like, keep going and I. But he's like I, I want him to be like, wow, she really stepped into purpose and she was right to to step into that. Why do I need the validation? I guess because he's my husband.

Megan Devito:

Like he's a pretty strong voice. What do you get from it.

Erin Washington:

dopamine hit. Value. Like I feel like he thinks it's again that we're disappointing value. Like he, I feel like he thinks it's again that we weren't disappointing. Like I'm a disappointing mom and wife because I'm not making biscuits in my kitchen and that's what he saw. Like growing up it is, and he grew up in the South and he's very traditional mother and father roles and I he stepped into a marriage that was going to be that because that is what I said, and that is what I believed.

Erin Washington:

And now this is not what he signed up for and that's fair, it's not. Or you could argue, he signed up for better or worse sickness and health, signed up for everything. But I know that this is not what he would have. Like me now, he would not have been attracted to that. Like I'm too confident and I'm too out there. Like he wants someone very, he wants who he got, who he married. But I'm not that person anymore and I know and that's why I filed, to be honest, like so it's like I think I'm still processing what I thought. I thought we would be together forever. It's been 19 years. This is now not working out and I'm still trying to like process what happened and maybe holding on to like, if he just understands that like see, this is what I'm supposed to do, then like he'll let like be interested again and like our family will come back together. This is just like pouring out of me. I don't even know if that's but that's good.

Erin Washington:

Maybe I'm trying to like, I'm not, I could easily be like you know what I'm not going to. Well, I won't do speaking because it's the travel he doesn't. That's not, you're not a big fan of that. I could be like you know, I'm not going to be speaking so that I could be more appealing to my husband. I'm not going to do that. So I know that I'm never going to dull this down to be what he would like it to go back to. But I want him to see that this is the new me and this is right. This was the right choice. So he'll get back on board and be like yeah, I guess this is what she should be doing and like accept me as this new version of me.

Megan Devito:

Okay. So somewhere along the line, when you decided to start telling your story and like I'm going to tell people about bulimia, I'm going to tell them about my life and who I am and what I've been dealing with, and so I'm like going on speaking gigs, I'm doing book signings, I'm doing all this, and somewhere along the line he makes it clear that he's like I'm out. I don't want any part of this.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, well, very interesting that you said he made it clear and said he's out, I filed, so he was kind of like Right.

Megan Devito:

That was what I was going to ask next, but you filed.

Erin Washington:

He was not saying that he was out, but his actions and demeanor around the house were something that I could no longer tolerate and it was all stemming from what I was doing. So then I filed. He would have stayed and just continued. I couldn't take it anymore Like I was dulling things down and turning things down to appease him. So I filed and I think he's hurt about that. Like he's like you filed, you're the one that filed. And I'm like I didn't feel like I had any other choice, Megan, because of how I was being treated. But I was being treated that way because I was doing these, these new career things. It all stemmed from the career but he, I filed.

Megan Devito:

So and yeah, like I can totally get that. And I think that it kind of goes back to that question that what if nobody else knew? Like what if nobody had to know but you? Because here's what I think, that, so when you think about like I need that external validation, what happens, like if you don't get it? Like if we looked at it, like what happens if you, if you didn't get it, what would happen?

Erin Washington:

It just keeps coming up. Disappointment. I would be so disappointed. Like soccer she failed. Like her career was shit. Now she has a podcast but it's not, like it's only like a top 5%, like she's not really doing anything. I'd be disappointed that people think I'm still not doing it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and those are all the things that you're telling yourself right now, but those may or may not be true. Right, those are. That's your.

Erin Washington:

That's what's so crazy, I know what this show is, but I want to make sure people are seeing it. Do you see this? Did you see the Katie Couric? Why do we need to be able to see it?

Megan Devito:

Right, and it's that thought, though, that leads to the disappointment, right? Like I, even though I rationally know it's not true, I'm like okay, so, at any point, because we know it's not true and that it's just a belief right now, like this is what I believe. I wonder what it would take for you to change that belief, as even that like I don't need anybody to tell me anything, Like if you could even like make it a game, like can you gamify it?

Megan Devito:

You can somehow make it a game like can you gamify it?

Erin Washington:

You can somehow make it a challenge, I'll do it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, Like if it actually like if you were driven on that next level, can you take it and be like how far can I go, Like what can I do? And like make myself both really good without needing anybody else to know, Because what if you did something and nobody knew? But you knew it was you.

Erin Washington:

I was like so I I interviewed Sarah Blakely. It's like my biggest show and I can't post about it. I can't let anyone know that I interviewed her. I just know that we had a great conversation.

Erin Washington:

I would be like like I would be like look everyone Spanx and I got her. Like I, it wouldn't count if I they were like look everyone spanks and I got her. It wouldn't count if they were like, yeah, you can have her on your show, but you can't promote that you had her. That would be very hard for me?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, it would be, but could you make it? So here's my thought. If somebody called me and said, hey, would you like to go and interview Michelle Obama? Just like, go to the Obama's house and hang out in their living room and drink wine, but you can't tell anybody, yeah, I would do it. I'm a hundred percent going like that. I think I'm like,

Erin Washington:

But you're not disappointed at all.

Erin Washington:

You have no desire to share the uh, Michelle Obama. Michelle Obama was on the More than Anxiety podcast.

Erin Washington:

You would have something that you built and that you have pride in and you got her.

Megan Devito:

I would want to share it, but if I knew that I could be like one of those things where I could tell like my mom, like you can tell your mom, you can tell your best friend, but she can't put it on the podcast, I would be like, oh yeah, I'm going right, like I would want to but would I actually need it, no?

Erin Washington:

I want to make it clear that I would though.

Erin Washington:

I think it's because soccer was my value. Soccer went to shit, so now, but I still have this other thing and watch this Like now, this will not go to shit, this will be the biggest thing ever. See, this was my value. And so if it's not trending or charting, it's like, oh, like one. There was one time my husband said something like your little show. And I'm like my little show.

Erin Washington:

Okay, here we go, I will show you like I have a drive to prove a proving energy, that this is not a little show and I just have pride in it, Cause it's something that I just came up with. So you want to see it, see it through, like to its maximum potential, and I want it. I want it to be the biggest thing ever. But I know that there has to be a balance, that if it's not like, that's fine too, Like I, I'll see.

Erin Washington:

I'm all about like I'll book like these big guests, like millions of followers, and they'll share it. And I'm all about like I'll book like these big guests, like millions of followers, and they'll share it. And I'm like, oh, now where I'm, and that one never does anything. It's like I put so much into that, and then I'll just have a conversation like you and I, and it's like that's the one that hits for people. So why am I trying to like, I have to book the biggest guests so that I can have this credibility that I can book anyone. And it doesn't count if it's just like oh, how many followers did your guest today have? Like, oh well, you're not booking like Michelle Obama yet. So we'll see. Like and I'm I would be driven to book Michelle Obama the following week to show I guess I can, I can do that like prove, I don't know, proving my worth and my value

Megan Devito:

So your value keeps coming from what you're doing.

Erin Washington:

Yes, Ooh?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, but what if that's not it? What if it's not about what you're doing at all. What if it's just about who you are? Like, if you were, like, naked in the middle of a woods, what's your value?

Erin Washington:

Yeah, not much, that's probably not a good

Megan Devito:

That is the problem.

Erin Washington:

Like what did I check off, Megan, If I'm in the middle of the woods?

Megan Devito:

You're naked in the middle of the woods and you're not doing anything. I didn't get to check anything off.

Erin Washington:

It is it's doing. I have to look at all the things I checked.

Megan Devito:

It's a do thing, and this is like a stripped down, naked kind of moment where it's like, if I didn't podcast, if I didn't play soccer, if I didn't have my husband, if I didn't have my kids, if I didn't have that and it was just me here, what is my value? And when you answer that question, it's going to make it real easy for other people. You're not going to give a shit when anybody thinks about you.

Erin Washington:

That's so true Cause I wouldn't have, like I validate, even for myself, like, oh my gosh, look at all the things you crossed off today. Now you can sleep, like if I was in the forest and there was nothing to accomplish like tasks to, and now I just have to sit there and not have to have like a to-do list to work through and just like be with my thoughts. Good Lord, yeah.

Megan Devito:

Because you are a hundred percent productive and you do amazing things Amazing soccer, amazing podcasts, amazing interviews amazing relationship. Amazing kids, but like

Erin Washington:

Not amazing relationship.

Megan Devito:

Well, previously amazing relationship.

Erin Washington:

I'm not going to accept that one. Yes, it's all the things that I do.

Megan Devito:

That's where you're getting your value. But if you took that and you threw it all away, that's what you need to find. You got to find what's in the middle.

Erin Washington:

Will you help me? Like what is your value? Again, Like you didn't do anything, I'm not going to say what did you do today?

Megan Devito:

I'm an encourager.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, yeah, like I know that when I meet people that I can encourage them and that I can make them really feel good about themselves. And if I don't get anything done and somebody has a bad day, and I said the right thing, that was it. Like I really feel like I'm here to help people be like the best that they can be. And if that means that I have a conversation with somebody and it's just some dude in line at the grocery store, that's good. Yeah, and do I? And I almost get. And it's funny because the reason I know that I that the reason I'm going to challenge you on the I need people to tell me that I'm doing well, is because sometimes I like to do things and never, ever, ever tell anybody about it, because I get so much satisfaction out of knowing that I did it.

Erin Washington:

And so that thought that thought of.

Megan Devito:

I need them to validate. It is only a thought. So we a lot of times what we do is we have these thoughts and we just pretend like they're coming across, like on the news ticker on the bottom of the screen, Like this is a fact and really it's not. It's just a thing. That's part, it's so built into our internal dialogue and our brain likes to believe anything that we think it's like. Well, that must be true, because I thought it. But most of the time it's not, it's just garbage that goes through our heads all day.

Erin Washington:

So what do you do when the thought comes through?

Megan Devito:

You just for me, because I like, if we go back to the whole idea of anxiety or intrusive thoughts for me, I have to remind myself I'm like like a lot of times I'll be like, I mean that's one thought, because I used to. So my anxiety was all related to around like health, so I spent years and years and years being afraid of every symptom in my body and think I was dying of like horrible diseases and I had to get to the point where I'm like that would be a really scary thing. That was one thought and realizing that I fought it but it wasn't true. I mean, I think stupid crap all the time, especially if you look at like health, anxiety and OCD and things like that that really do throw intrusive thoughts at you like all day long.

Erin Washington:

Yes, we didn't even get into my like anxiety. You don't even know how I am with my kids, like all the scenarios that could possibly go down. Like I played, like mine started postpartum anxiety but my daughter's eight and I'm still on Zoloft. Um, I was flying with her and they closed the boarding doors. And I've flown like hundreds of times and I was like they closed the doors and my I don't know what a panic attack feels like, but I feel like the only reason it wasn't a full blown panic attack is because I was the only person responsible for my infant daughter.

Erin Washington:

But I was like if every, if it wasn't like that the plane was going to crash. It was like if everyone starts to stand up, how am I going to get her out? And like I was looking to like, see, I mean overwhelming, like debilitating anxiety. Also like if I, you, if I'm in a stop sign and there's like two rows of car of traffic coming from both ways and somebody's behind me, I would rather just just shoot me, like the me has trapped.

Erin Washington:

I have to. They're like go, and I'm like, but I don't want to go, like I'm nervous to go, but I know that I'm inconveniencing every I would, I would rather be shot than have to have everyone upset and like judging if I'm going to go or not and like sometimes I'm like, oh no, I'm going to wait for the next car. I it's debilitating and I just get super anxious. And mine I don't even remember being. I mean I'm sure I had some level of anxiety, but when I became a mom I mean that's probably another part of my relationship, like it was like times 50, that I would just get so like all the time and like living in that state and, yes, like OCD. And so maybe having the list and saying the things that I did calms my anxiety, like it's going to be fine. Look what you crossed off everything. And if I there's nothing to cross off, I'm just like like buzzing.

Megan Devito:

That's 100% what's happening. Yeah, and it's really that because OCD and anxiety are so crisscrossing a lot of the times I mean, they have so many and ADHD, they all crisscross so much but it's that feeling inside your body when you're like, oh God, I can feel it right here. That is so intolerable, yes, that I have to fix it. And your way of fixing it is to have people tell you you did a good job, because when you do, the feeling goes away. Yeah, or I find it across things off, the feeling goes away.

Megan Devito:

But as soon as you learn how to say, oh, that feeling is making me do the think those things. So what happens is your body feels this feeling and then your brain just starts concocting stories about why. And for your, your story right now is because they didn't tell me I did a good job, which means I I have to do more. But if you can learn to sit with that feeling and be like I hate this feeling, it sucks and I don't have to do anything about it because I know how to calm it down, your brain will shut up.

Erin Washington:

That's what I need. When you say it and you're saying verbatim what I say, it sounds so ridiculous, like, and you're not good if they don't say anything. And listening to this, like, why are you doing that? Like, I don't want to be this way, but I'm being completely honest that I am this way.

Megan Devito:

And oh oh no, I believe you

Erin Washington:

Not at all. No, I didn't mean it, but like. When you're like and you're doing all these things, when I'm hearing it back, I'm like, just stop doing that. Like, it's so ridiculous. But I just have to sit with it and be like, nope, like right.

Megan Devito:

I mean, this is kind of where we go into this idea of grounding techniques, or you know, what are you going to do with that feeling Like when you feel that feeling? If you can use it yeah, if you can use that really horrible, awful feeling inside your body to remind you that you're not allowed to believe anything that you think, because this is where it gets into that idea of I mean rationally I know it's stupid when you feel that your rational brain isn't working because it's like biologically, like old caveman stuff.

Megan Devito:

That part of your brain, that frontal lobe, completely shuts off and so it's just based on survival and for you your survival is. It means I'm not good enough and that people can't see me unless somebody else tells me. So, when you feel that anything that you think is utter bullshit and it's like nope, I cannot believe that until this calms down and then it'll be like I don't really. I don't really need anybody to tell me, because I know that it was amazing that I'm in the top 5% of podcasts. Rational brain comes back online when we can take this and be like and bring it down, but it's just become such a habit and it feels so important.

Erin Washington:

First, I would like to say top 1%, because that is how I get validation. I'm I'm half kidding and half psycho. Psycho lady, I, I need like a, a behavior to like. It's like when you say it I can't, it's not enough. I need you to be like, I need to pick up a. There needs to be a behavior that I do when I catch myself Like how do you? I feel like me just being, like, I just know myself, like I can't, I can't shut my mind off. If there's any kind of technique where it's like no, I'm going to go for a walk, I don't, I don't know, do you have anything like that?

Megan Devito:

It's like yeah, so I had a coach first of all. I had a coach for a long time and her thing that she said to me that I use all the time is brains are going to brain. Like brain's going to brain, it's going to think it's going to make up stuff that you don't.

Megan Devito:

you're like, why? Like, yeah, it's just going to do it. So it's really more about the feeling than it is about the thoughts. The thoughts are all symptoms of whatever else is going on, and somewhere along the line, something got stuck in your nervous system and it fires up and it makes you think the same thought.

Megan Devito:

I don't know what it was and I don't have any idea how to figure it out, but for me and it's always goes back to the cheesy breath thing. But I am a huge on exhaling, because people that get really anxious and up in our heads we tend to breathe really shallow and talk and like go faster, faster, faster. So if we can exhale and like imagine squishing yourself as flat as a pancake with the exhale, like exhale and a little more, and a little more and a little more until you feel like okay, now.

Erin Washington:

I'm really empty, and then slowly inhale, yeah.

Megan Devito:

So some people are kind of afraid of it, like if they're really sensitive to breathing stuff, but if you're not just exhale really really far and then, when you need to breathe in, breathe in really deep, hold it for a few seconds and then push it all the way out again and then just sit there and really, if you can put, even put your hand on that spot again and just be like, okay, I'm just going to breathe and imagine breathing into that spot. It takes practice because your body has a real strong habit right now of going there.

Erin Washington:

But what a tangible tip to give me like that. You gave me a practice that I can do it.

Megan Devito:

Now I have something in my tool belt to do Like instead of just at target before, like if I feel anxious at Target, I can exhale at Target. Nobody's going to know Um you can do it anywhere, nobody's ever going to know, it's just breathing. You don't have to be dramatic unless you want to be.

Erin Washington:

I mean you can, and it's intentional breathing Like I, anything that it's like. Just meditate Like you. You don't live in my mind Like there's no meditating, I just have obsession of the mind right there Like this. It never turns off. Like I thought it was ADHD, it's like we've kind of figured out that it's like a compulsive need to be moving and tidying up and I just never sit and breathe.

Erin Washington:

I'm and I I don't know like I'm doing the work. I'm, I'm in therapy for it, I'm on. Maybe I need to up my dose of Zoloft to kind of like bring me back down, cause I'm always just highly efficient, efficient, and if I'm not being efficient, that judgmental, like what this is, how bad it is. If I, I'm going to go for a walk after this, but I can only go for a walk if the dryer and washer are going, so that something is happening here efficiently, because if I'm just walking and nothing else is getting done, it's like why wouldn't I, like I have to be, things have to always be going for me to be settled, and if I, you can cross them off your list.

Erin Washington:

Yes, but it's like I would not enjoy my walk or be able to like shut off my mind if I didn't know that things were also happening here, like the high I get when it's like I am, there's something in the dishwasher, the washer and the dryer they're all going. I just did my Instacart order, so someone is shopping for my groceries. Like you can't tell me nothing today, like I. That is about look at all the things I have done and my kids come home and the house is done, but if one of those things is not happening and it's still looming, I'm unsettled.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, like there's so many things that I'm like I have so many things that we could talk about, but I think

Erin Washington:

Maybe you have to come on my show

Megan Devito:

Yes, I would love to.

Erin Washington:

You need to come and, we like listen to this, and then part two, you come on my show and we keep going because there's a lot left to uncover and you're helping me very much. I appreciate being here, yeah.

Megan Devito:

But I think really though, even if you think about, if you said I'm always moving, you can always be moving and still breathe on purpose.

Megan Devito:

I mean, even if it's I'm standing at my counter and I'm just kind of like swaying back and forth and I'm still practicing like I'm going to exhale, like it can help to stand up and do it Like you don't have to sit there and like monk out or anything

Erin Washington:

I mean I'd never think about breathing and it's like I would like exercise classes and they're like, remember to breathe, and like when they would say it, I'd be like like, oh, I wasn't breathing and like I needed someone to tell me to breathe, like that's how, like I'm just anxious, I'm just in a high stress state all the time and it's really making me look at what my husband was dealing with with this.

Erin Washington:

I'm like, oh, you don't validate my career and the breathing thing is so, yeah, Sorry, You're a million miles an hour.

Erin Washington:

Like I know that I'm not a piece of cake to to be around when I'm this way, but yeah, like just take taking that moment to like be intentional about breathing and thinking about your breath. And yes, I need to, I don't do that ever?

Megan Devito:

Slowing down on purpose, even when it's going to feel like anxiety, wants to make you go faster. Slowing down on purpose is so, so, so important, and breathing makes you slow down because, I mean, you have to breathe, especially, though, I think, as a soccer player, because you probably have really good cardiovascular fitness and I was a swimmer and we were just told not to breathe.

Megan Devito:

Don't breathe into the wall.

Megan Devito:

So I mean it was easy for me to hold my breath. I used to be able to hold my breath for a really, really, really long time and I was anxious, so it just all worked out. I just didn't breathe.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, it's perfect for your lifestyle.

Megan Devito:

It was great, yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think, really focusing on that and remembering that if you were naked in the woods, what is your value If you didn't cross anything off your list for the day that? Is the question that you probably journal on for hours. That was the quite like I wrote down doing things I'm all about doing things and naked in the woods.

Erin Washington:

Yeah, I'm gonna go in the woods and do some things naked. I'm gonna expand upon those two things. That is a journaling right there. Then it's like there's no time to journal. What are you journaling like? Look at all the things you need to accomplish in your journaling. That's where my mind goes like waste of time.

Megan Devito:

I journal every day, and every day

Erin Washington:

Yeah, there's so many other things to be crossing off while you're journaling.

Megan Devito:

Yes, and it's like yeah, but it really does make me because I am very much that same personality firstborn daughter type that's like let's get shit done. Yes, that is getting things, and it's productive slowness.

Erin Washington:

Thank you, oh, I like productive slowness. That's also getting written down. Thank you.

Megan Devito:

This was fun!

Erin Washington:

This was fun.

Megan Devito:

Oh my gosh.

Erin Washington:

Welcome to what my show is.

Erin Washington:

It's just working through the things and being vulnerable with someone else who will go there with you, Because it's like I just always picture I didn't get help for my eating disorders and stuff, Cause I always just pictured like a man being like oh, you tell me about your body image and I'm like I don't want to talk to you, Like you don't get it, You're not sure about your body image, but when you have two people really going there, it's like whoever's listening hopefully, is breathing a little better and like realizing you're so not alone. Just, not everyone says all of this out loud.

Megan Devito:

I think we're all thinking a lot of the same things a lot of times and we're finally just starting to break it open a little bit because I've seen things. I still will talk to people and they'll tell me things that they were scared of and I'm like, oh, I thought it was the only person in the whole world about that, totally scared of, and I'm like, oh, I thought it was the only person in the whole world about that.

Erin Washington:

Totally. Yeah, I know we're all the same. Yeah, like, yeah, I get you Exactly. I don't I don't even know where I saw you that I was like oh, come on, you can anxiety me, like that was we were supposed to like. Like-minded women that like share and help other women will find each other and just keep having these conversations, so another woman that maybe isn't at the point where she wants to say it out loud can get the answers without having to say it out loud, just listening to a conversation.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, absolutely, and we need to. We're making the world better every single day.

Erin Washington:

Girl power

Megan Devito:

Yeah yeah, oh, my gosh, thank you for spending your time with me this morning. Thank you so much for having me. It was awesome. I love it. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Before you go, be sure to subscribe and leave a review so others can easily find this resource as well. And, of course, if you're ready to feel calm, to stop overthinking and have a lot more fun, you can go to the show notes, click the link and talk to me about coaching. I'll talk to you soon.