More Than Anxiety

Ep 101 - How To Become Burnout Proof with Ellyn Schinke

• Megan Devito • Episode 101

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In this episode, Ellyn Schinke and I are diving deep into the world of burnout with a whole lot of laughs and fun.

Ellyn shares her personal journey from a high-achieving super smarty-pants, who was fuel by external validation and stress to a successful coach and burnout expert.

We explore the challenges of transitioning from a traditional career path to a passion-driven one, and the importance of self-awareness and boundaries in preventing burnout.

Ellyn also shares practical tips for managing stress and achieving a healthier work-life balance,including the power of weekly reviews, mindfulness practices, and delegating to technology.

Learn how to redefine balance, overcome the fear of overworking, and prioritize self-care in a fast-paced world while keeping your sense of humor, having fun, and loving a good challenge.

This is one JAM PACKED episode - from burnout to knowing your values. You don't want to miss it!

Be sure to check out Ellyn's website and follow her on Instagram and Threads

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Thanks for listening!

You know you're overwhelmed, burned out, sick to death of work but also trying to do everyting for everyone at home. TAKE THIS QUIZ to find out why you're so overwhelmed and what to do about it.

Megan Devito:

Welcome to the More Than Anxiety Podcast. I'm Megan Devito and I help ambitious women break out of the anxiety cycle that keeps them frustrated and stuck. Get ready for a lighthearted approach that will change what you think, how you feel and what you believe about yourself. This podcast is full of simple steps, a lot of truth, talk and inspiration to take action. So you walk away feeling confident, calm, and inspiration to take action. So you walk away feeling confident, calm and ready to live. Let's get to it. Hey there, welcome to episode 101. My name is Megan, I'm a life coach and I help women handle stress and anxiety, and I'm about to introduce you to Ellen Schenke.

Megan Devito:

Ellyn is a burnout coach. She helps millennial solopreneurs work less, live more. And, oh my gosh, you guys, I know I say this all the time, but this interview was so much fun. We talked forever before we ever even started. We laughed. I have no idea how we stayed on track, or even if we stayed on track that much. You're going to love this interview. You're going to learn about burnout, you're going to laugh. You're going to have so much fun. Be sure that you follow her. She is on Instagram, she's on threads. She's coach Ellen. C O, a, c, h, e, l L Y N. Enjoy this episode. Share somebody you know who is burned out, who needs a little help with their mental health. And be sure that you go to EllYn's podcast as well. Leave her a review. Leave a review here. I'm super excited to bring this. I'm just going to shut up and let her roll. Enjoy the episode. Tell us everything we need to know about you.

Ellyn Schinke:

Oh, okay, Are we?

Megan Devito:

are we already?

Ellyn Schinke:

recording. I didn't even realize yeah, let's just go, let's just go for it. "No-transcript formative. How we work, how we relate to work. I feel like that starts when we're teenagers. So I always like to throw it back to when teenage Ellen. And teenage Ellen was like a stereotypical, like high achiever, overachiever, probably very externally validated. I was that kid that I was. I just wanted everything I did, I just wanted people to tell me that, like you're doing a good job. That was what motivated me and that's a blessing because it made me a very, very hard worker and it made me, you know, very competent and very responsible. But it's a curse because I feel like I realized in my mid to late twenties that a lot of what I was pursuing and achieving I was doing it for the wrong reasons. But that's maybe I'm fast forwarding a little bit too quickly.

Ellyn Schinke:

So teenage Ellyn was like that.

Ellyn Schinke:

Yeah, teenage Ellyn was like that. Ellyn was like that in college, um, and then fast forward to grad school and that's really where things came to a head. I feel like all of us reach a point where the ways in which we operated when we were young no longer work anymore and whether that is, you know, we just don't have the energy to have that many things on our plate, or whatever it is. And for me that was grad school and it really came to a head in grad school because it was mental exhaustion. It was physical exhaustion because I was just doing so much stuff, but really the kicker was it was emotional exhaustion. I hit this wall in grad school where I realized that the validation I was seeking from other people just was like no longer enough and I really had to start figuring out what do I want? What does Ellyn value? What does Ellyn care about? I have referred to myself in third person so much since we've started this conversation but

Megan Devito:

No, I like this.

Megan Devito:

This is like the conversation I have with myself when it's just me hanging out in my house. So this is good.

Ellyn Schinke:

Yeah, it's like I had to know, like I had to really boil it down to what I wanted. And when I realized what I wanted and I kind of started looking around at the path I was pursuing, I was a scientist, I was getting my PhD, I was going to be Dr. Ellyn, I had multiple publications and, as validating and as good at that path as I was, I didn't want it. Like I would look up the ladder at the grad schools that were ahead of me and or the grad students that were ahead of me and like my mentor and I would look up the ladder and I would just realize they're happy and they're fulfilled, but I don't want their life. And it's not that there was anything wrong with their life, I just didn't want it. That's not what I saw for myself and that was like a gut punch because that is the only career path I had ever seen for myself. And so, as I tried to kind of work my way out of this. As I realized that I was burned out and that I needed something to get me out of this, I started doing what,

Ellyn Schinke:

And this is where the being a scientist actually benefited me a lot, I started just like researching the absolute hell out of burnout and stress and self-care and personal growth, and I became a sponge for anything self-care or personal growth related and in doing. So, I found coaching and that threw a massive monkey wrench into my life, because I have never loved anything as much as I have loved coaching. But it was like I wish I could say it was like an easy transition from there and I dropped out of grad school and I became a coach. It was all butterflies and unicorns. It was not. There was a very challenging identity shifts that happened in the process of leaving behind science and stepping into coaching, because this was like 10 years ago, it was like seven years ago now and, let's be honest, coaching is just now starting to become respected as a field. I feel like back then. I do not feel like it was, and so every ounce of myself and, frankly, a lot of the people around me were like what the hell are you doing?

Megan Devito:

Yeah.

Megan Devito:

And I think there's a lot of people like coaching.

Megan Devito:

They're like it's not even a thing. Yeah, it's like like, what sport? That was the thing. They were like oh, what sport are you going to coach? I'm like, hey, but B not a sport.

Ellyn Schinke:

Yeah, exactly Exactly. And I actually had somebody ask me the other day that, like, if I had, like if I had been more self-aware back when I was a teenager, do I think I would have ended up in the coaching path sooner? And my answer was like, honestly no, because coaching wasn't on my radar, coaching wasn't even something that I thought you could do. And so, like, naturally stepping into this, there was a part of me that was fighting against my own internal biases of coaching isn't a real field, coaching isn't a real career path and the biases of people around me. It was really hard to go from something that was so innately respected to something that, frankly, wasn't. So that was a big mindset shift and identity shift and I wish I could say I didn't burn out again after that either. But nobody teaches you. You know they don't teach business, and biology programs is always what I joke about. So, like, nobody teaches you how to run a business and, frankly, passion does not prevent burnout, contrary to what anybody might say, including Gary Vee Like, passion does not prevent burnout. It doesn't matter how much you love it.

Ellyn Schinke:

I loved what I was doing, but that was actually the Achilles heel is I loved what I was doing and I sometimes have to talk myself through stopping, and so I started my business and I burned out again because I had no idea how to do this and have a like a healthy, balanced lifestyle at the same time.

Ellyn Schinke:

So that's kind of how I got to doing this work and now it's all I do. Like I like live and breathe burnout and stress management. Even when I am doing my other work with my students, I am constantly thinking about burnout and stress. I literally had a 45 minute conversation with a student last night about test anxiety and how to calm herself down. So, like I, this is what I do, I coach it. I, I teach it, I speak on it. Like this is burnout has become my life as a result of this, and I literally said last week in a newsletter I sent out to my coaching you know list that burnout is the best thing that ever happened to me in a lot of ways, because I would not be here now without it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, Isn't that crazy. First of all, that please don't get burnout on burnout which just feels all the way out of right. But I think you're right. Like this idea that if you're passionate about something, then you won't get burnout. I'm like no, if you're passionate about something, you, if you're not careful, you'll burn yourself so fast that you won't be passionate about it Absolutely.

Ellyn Schinke:

There's literally so many surveys and studies about the people who claim to be passionate about the work are oftentimes more likely to experience burnout. And there was a really interesting article I saw over the weekend that Ariana Huffington had shared on LinkedIn and I actually commented on it because it was really interesting. She contradicted herself in her post. The research that she was saying said passion does not prevent burnout, but the commentary that Ariana Grande I almost said Ariana Grande- I want to know what she thinks too, Ariana Huffington had said was contradictory to that.

Ellyn Schinke:

So it was really, really interesting. I feel like we've been told for so long just find your passion, you're going to be fine. Find something that you love doing. But there's a dark side to that, because when you love something, you have a hard time stopping doing it, and that's something I constantly have to remind myself of and that I constantly speak to, because I think it's a massive misconception. When it comes to career and profession. I feel like my mission now has become I want to change the way we think and make decisions about our careers.

Ellyn Schinke:

I want us to realize that burnout is a choice and you can choose differently.

Megan Devito:

Especially with what you said about the like in the like, external validation growing up. If that, this is my passion and they're telling me I'm doing good, I'm doing a great job, my, my students are getting results, everything is going so well, that's still external validation. I mean you can, yeah, I mean, and if that's what you're like, oh, but I love this so much, more, more, more. Yeah, you have to keep doing more to keep getting more, and that's that's a hard line to draw, especially. You're right, I went to school for education.

Megan Devito:

They don't teach you about business and education. They basically give you free business. There's like here's 30 kids at a time running with it. So it is. I mean finding, figuring that all out. And when I mean coming from biology or an education field where you're like, no, I want to have this successful build or this successful business, but I'm not sure where to stop, like, what if I have an idea in the middle of the night? Or what if I, you know, do I need to do this past my hours Because it's just me? Yep, how do you put those boundaries down for yourself?

Ellyn Schinke:

Oh my God, it's hard. And I will even say and this is the one place where I like almost, defend those of us who are single, like, yes, people who are single and childless don't have children to take care of, or like somebody else to, like, you know, take care of with their spouse, or whatever, but simultaneously I don't have anything around me making me turn off.

Ellyn Schinke:

So, like it's almost like the overwork can be worse when you're single, and so that's an even added thing to it and I've realized for myself it's hard. I've kind of. I actually even had a conversation recently with one of my clients that since I don't plan on having kids, I feel like that. I don't want that to give me a free pass to just work. But I also feel like the what I would pour into children I'm pouring into the impact I want to leave and the legacy I want to leave and what I'm creating professionally. So I do feel like there's a balance there. But for me what I have to do is I have to put it on the calendar. I literally realized earlier, like maybe a couple of weeks ago, that it is now the nice time of year in the Seattle area. I want to take advantage of it. But if I don't literally put on the calendar oh, I'm meeting up with so-and-so this day or I'm going to go hike this mountain on this day If I don't put that into my calendar, it is so easy for me to sit down at my computer, especially because I live in a 500 square foot studio, so like my little office setup is like always in my face.

Ellyn Schinke:

I will sit down at my computer and I will work the entire day. And here's the other side of it too. I don't think burnout is just about overwork. So I don't feel like there's problems with being in a season where you are grinding and you are hustling, but the problem is when you are working, working, working and you're doing nothing to pour back into yourself. And pouring back into yourself can look like so many different things. It can look like exercise. It can look like I'm going to go on a walk out in the sun or a walk out at the park or whatever. It can look like going on a hike. It can look like reading or journaling, or I taught myself how to watercolor during COVID. That was like my COVID hobby that I created for myself.

Ellyn Schinke:

So, like I have to put that on the calendar. I also have a big proponent of delegating to systems. I'm the kind of person I've been a manager in my past life. I have no desire for my business to become something where I have to manage 80 bajillion people for my business to operate. So, like I delegate to technology a lot and realized that if I have to constantly enforce my boundaries around when I want to work, how many meetings I want to have on any given day, I'm going to fail miserably at that.

Ellyn Schinke:

So I delegate to technology, like you can, most schedulers that you use. You use Calendly, I use Acuity because it's built into my website platform. Like, I have to rely on my schedulers to say, okay, this is when Ellen is available and this is how many meetings Ellen is willing to have scheduled into her calendar. My scheduler handles all of that, and the times where I don't leverage my scheduler are the times when I break my boundaries. So I feel like I have to delegate to technology a lot and I just have to my calendar. Even though, like, I don't operate by my calendar in terms of like my to-dos and how I spend my time, my calendar is there to literally define. This is when I'm socializing and this is when I'm going to go do something for fun. This is when I'm going to get out of my house. So those are probably the biggest ways that I enforce my own boundaries is with technology and just like putting things on my calendar.

Megan Devito:

I love that and it's funny because I have this love affair with my paper calendar. But I also have my digital calendar and my you're right like the parts where I end up just sabotaging myself over and over again is where I use Calendly or I use, you know, I have things on my computer but I forget to put them in the paper calendar. And then why? Why won't I give up the paper calendar? I don't know, I don't know, but I like it, but it is. It's one of those things where it does get in your way. And for the last two weeks, I'm like what happened two weeks ago that made this happen? I had so much going on at once and it really comes down to not using technology the way I needed to use it, not using technology the way it needed to use it, and so.

Megan Devito:

But what you said about we really can get on a like in a place where we are working and like really grinding through and putting things out, and sometimes it does require that. So this idea that like no, for my self-care, I have to have this me time where I just don't do anything I don't know if that's a personality thing or if it's a, I don't know where that falls. Do you feel like there are? I think there's a level of I don't want to say acceptance, that's not the word I'm looking for A level of where, like I can tolerate that tolerance level maybe, where I need more time. Everybody obviously needs more time, depending on whether they're an introvert or an extrovert or what else they've got going on in their lives, but this idea that, like I, can't work too hard, or else, like I feel like we're at this weird place in history right now where it's almost like people are afraid to work at all.

Megan Devito:

I feel like they're almost afraid to work at all. I don't ever want to get to the grind area where I'm like there's so much power in that grind sometimes and you're so energized. But you're right, it is balanced with but I also know I need to go for a hike or I'm going to get up and work out in the morning. There's balance in there, but it's almost like I'm either going to work.

Ellyn Schinke:

Are you saying it's like a tolerance to the level of work?

Megan Devito:

Yes, like maybe the tolerance to a level of work, like I'm afraid if I start working too much, that I won't be able to schedule these other things in, or if I start scheduling things in, I won't be able to balance. It's almost like a problem balancing it.

Ellyn Schinke:

And see, I think maybe that's where the misconception of balance comes from, like I used to think that, like my, day had to be balanced, or my week had to be balanced, and I no longer think of balance that way anymore.

Ellyn Schinke:

I think of balance more as kind of a long game. Like is my month balanced? Is my quarter balanced? Because, frankly, you could even have a month that is, put your head down and grind for the next month, but if, over the course of the quarter, that is balanced by a month where you're not grinding and you're really focusing on socializing, like this month, I actually feel like in a lot of ways, like this is a terrible example, but also a fantastic example, because this month my birthday was. Last week I turned 35, like literally a week ago. Yay, yay, turning 35.

Megan Devito:

Happy birthday

Ellyn Schinke:

Thank you, thank you. So, but like, this month has been really interesting because I have been giving my parents so much shit because they are out of the country right now. They missed my 35th birthday, they're, they're not here, like. So I've been giving them so much shit. But I finally told my mom I was like, don't worry about it, because I have the most fun May planned. Like I have all the things happening in May I went on, I had a birthday celebration with my friends.

Ellyn Schinke:

Like a week before my birthday I took myself on a staycation. I went to Victoria, British Columbia, and it was amazing. I'm going to a conference later. Oh, and I had a speaking engagement at the very beginning of May. Like May 1st I had a speaking engagement and then play, play, and then this week I'm going to a conference for two days in Phoenix, which yay, sunshine, and it's going to be jam packed. But I'm also really excited to meet some people that I've never met in real life before. I've only met them digitally. So there's that. And then next week I have another speaking engagement and then the week after that I'm going to Boise for like five or six days because my grandma's turning 90 and we're all getting together for her 90th to have like this big celebration.

Ellyn Schinke:

So this is maybe a terrible example for an introvert, in the sense that I have a lot of crap going on and I do consider myself to be an introvert. But I also feel like it's a wonderful balance in the sense that I've got play here and I've got hustle, and then I've got play and then I've got hustle, and I'm literally like alternating it. If you looked at any given day in my calendar this month, you would probably be like she has crappy balance, but if you look at literally the last month and a half in terms of how I've spent my time, I'm really proud of how balanced I am right now. Like it is not work, work, work, work, work, work, work. It is literally work. And now I'm going to go take five, five days off and go, like, explore Victoria, and then I'm going to.

Ellyn Schinke:

I like I worked on Saturday this week because I knew I had another you know play coming up, another trip coming up. So like I am really proud of the balance I have. But I think it's because I've redefined balance. I don't no longer think of it as a balanced day or balanced week, because for most of us you're not going to have a balanced day or balanced week, but your month or your quarter needs to be balanced and I think, if we look at it more that way, that's an easier balance to maintain, that's a much more practical balance to maintain. Does that answer

Ellyn Schinke:

your question.?

Megan Devito:

That is perfect. Yeah, that's actually perfect, because I think that I like the fact that you touched on what an introvert would do, because a lot of times, you know, you'll hear like well, I can't because I'm such an introvert, and I'm like let's not confuse introvert with social anxiety, first of all. And yes, like those are two very separate things, and you can be very talkative and able to go out and do things and still have to be alone to recharge, and I think that that definition is really, really important. So, for anyone who listens to this as well, I don't know how we would do that, because I'm such an introvert that whenever I go around people, I just feel so exhausted. I'm like I'm not sure that that's introversion.

Ellyn Schinke:

I do too. When I'm around a lot of people, I feel exhausted, but here's how I'm playing it out literally this week Cause I'm going to this conference. I could have worked really hard to get an Airbnb with the other people in my community that are also going to this conference. I could have done that Absolutely, but I know myself and I know the past situations where I have been at an event with people and sharing a residence with people, and that is too much.

Ellyn Schinke:

I would rather pay the money to get my own hotel room so that I have a place to recharge at the end of the day, like I am going to be like socializing and like chatting it up like nobody's business over the next three days. But I have a place to go back to where I can be by myself and if and I know if I need to tell and my a lot of the people in my network know this about me too I consider myself an outgoing introvert. I love people, but I it's like a switch flips in my brain when I'm out with people where I will suddenly be like having a ball. Having a ball like chatted up, laughing, like life of the party, up on stage, karaoke-ing, and then the switch flips in my brain and I'm like, yep, I'm going home, bye, and that is all for this night.

Megan Devito:

Yes, yes, I'm done, I have to leave. It is funny, though, because that switch is like and cut, I'm out, like it can be, and it sneaks up out of. I mean, I feel like you're just right now, because, as another extroverted introvert, it's like, yes, I can go up and talk in front of 200 people and be like, yeah, this, this and this, I'm not shy, it's not shyness, it's not any of that. And then I'm like, ooh, bye, yep.

Ellyn Schinke:

A hundred percent. I noticed it in grad school. It's the first time I noticed that that switch would flip in my brain and I had to explain it to my friends at the time. But now I've gotten to the point where everybody knows this about me I am outgoing, I love humans, but I'm an introvert and I get to a point where my social battery is just at zero and I peace. I'm out for the night, but I'll be back tomorrow and I'll be ready and raring to go tomorrow. But I need to recharge now and that's how I do it at these conferences I have been invited to. You know, get a hotel room with four other people or whatever, and the four people share. No, that's not for me. I can't. I love you all, but that's not for me.

Ellyn Schinke:

You will hate me by the end of this trip if I join with you. So I have to be very, very clear in myself. I honestly feel like and I've been saying this for the 10 years that I've been coaching now, at this point, self-awareness is really the first step with a lot of this stuff. If you notice the switch flips in your brain, then you just need to make the space and this is what a lot of us don't do. We need to make the space to understand why is the switch flipping in my brain?

Ellyn Schinke:

What does that say about my personality? Like, why do I, why do I constantly feel compelled to get my own hotel room? What does that say about my personality? And even with what you said a second ago, where you were like, what happened two weeks ago that made such chaos now, like if there was you know 15 minutes where you could just explore that what is the thing that happened two weeks ago that changed that? Self-awareness is a superpower. Self-awareness literally will help you with so many things, including, and in particular, burnout and stress management and understanding what your needs are and how you need to pour back into yourself.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and really that taking that 15 minutes sometimes can be really hard, where it's like, nope, something happened 15 minutes ago, but maybe I have to go, go, go, go go, and that's when you're going to fall into that trap of burnout, but taking that time to step back, so how do you help walk people through that?

Ellyn Schinke:

Oh gosh. Well, I would immediately say, with that example that you just gave, oftentimes we can't take the 15 minutes in real time, but what we can do is maybe like tuck that away. I'm a big fan of capturing what's what's happening. So like capturing when you think of the to-do, when you think of the idea for, like, a social media post, or like that note that you need to jot down to share with your client or whatever it might be, or to share with your manager. Capture those things. But this might also be something that we capture, like maybe we have a tendency to journal or something. Maybe we jot down okay, this happened on Monday and I don't have time to explore it right now, but I'm going to write this down so that I remember to journal on that later in the week. So it doesn't have to be analyzing those things in real time, because I, as well, would feel like that's disruptive to the flow of my day for me to be like I need to analyze this, like that's probably not practical for the flow of a lot of our days, but can we capture it somewhere and make the space later in the week to explore that thing? I journal.

Ellyn Schinke:

I'm a big fan of meditation too, because I don't think meditation is so much about clearing your mind as meditation is about A teaching yourself that you don't have to react to every single thought you have and, b just to see where your mind goes. Like, if my mind keeps going back to this thing that happened two weeks ago, that I'm still feeling anxious about that, I'm still overanalyzing that's probably a big sign that that's something I need to spend a little bit more time exploring. So like meditation I think can be really powerful to just see, like what's your mind stuck on, where's your mind going. I used to probably a couple of years ago when I was really in the thick of doing a lot of this personal growth I would meditate and then I would journal subsequently after I meditated, because I used, like where my brain went during my meditation to inform what I felt like I needed to journal on. So like that's something that I use.

Ellyn Schinke:

But, honestly, my favorite tool to use and I talk about this frequently is what's called a weekly review, and I literally sit down at the end of each week. It's not always the end. Sometimes it's like Friday night, saturday it could be Sunday night over glass of wine. Could be Monday morning, but sometime in there between Friday and Monday I sit down and I ask myself what worked, what didn't work and what can I improve about my last week? Yep, and that's something I have literally been doing for like seven years at this point. That's the one, probably habit that I have consistently maintained because I find so much power in it and it's the scientist in me.

Ellyn Schinke:

Basically, what you're doing is you're gathering data from your life and I review myself weekly, monthly and quarterly, and I gather data over the course of each week and then, on the month review, I'll look back at the weekly reviews and I look for patterns, I look for the things that came up.

Ellyn Schinke:

If something was only an issue on one week, I ignore it. That's a fluke, whatever. But if the same thing was coming up in my weekly reviews for three of the four weeks or four of the four weeks red flag, that is something that I either need to keep doing, because this can be a continue doing, but it also could be like this is something that I need to stop doing, or it was something that I need to address in some way, and I find that is such beautiful self-awareness right there and it literally can boil down to once a week, like if you have and we all do we just need to make room for it, like 20 minutes once a week to ask yourself those three questions and reflect back and just do that, turn it into a ritual, like I used to light a candle and pour myself a glass of wine on Sunday night and I would sit down and do this.

Megan Devito:

That's perfect, yeah, and it's funny. So you said this is fun because I also like I journal, and it's funny, some days where I sit down to journal I get so mad because I'm like I have nothing to journal on today, but I love the idea. Like, I do feel like sometimes like I need to stop right now and figure this out, but I'm not stopping right now because I have this, these things that have to get done, so I need to like this. I'm stealing this idea, this idea of using this later as a journal prompt the next day, because sometimes I just forget.

Megan Devito:

But I do also go back and do a review. Now I do mine every night before bed. I'll go back into my journal and say what worked, what didn't work, what would I do differently, and I'll do it every day and I'm onto myself Like I know, every day I'm like didn't go out and do this, didn't do this. I'm like why? Why am I not doing this? And so that's something that I'm like. Ah, yeah, that's something I can journal on, but I'm just going to say that if you all do not have waterproof paper in your shower, get a waterproof pad of paper and get a little suction cup and hang it on the wall because my best podcast ideas.

Megan Devito:

My best like oh my God, this was the thing I needed to think about. I am like jotting stuff down in the shower every day. It is like the water comes on and my brain comes on with it. But I do like I have a waterproof notebook. I am that girl. It's hanging in my shower and I'm like this is really important. Like when this runs out, I will always have waterproof paper in my shower. That is so funny. I mean my husband has to think I'm nuts. Like why would? Why would we do this?

Ellyn Schinke:

I'm like shh, shh, shh. I'll like have conversations in my shower which, you know, the next time I live with somebody, they're going to be like she is crazy. I actually don't feel like it happens on occasion for me that I get shower thoughts. What happens a lot for me is when I go on walks. Oh yes, when I go on walks, all the ideas come up, and this is actually very common for a lot of the clients I work with too.

Ellyn Schinke:

So, like one thing that I use Notion. Notion is like my capture system. But honestly, if you were a paper person, just use the notes app on your phone, but like I literally have a page in my, my Notion that is. It is I have a quick link on my phone home screen and it's all called my quick capture page and it has a place to jot down tasks, a place to jot down notes, and then what usually happens for me is I think of content ideas. When I'm out on walks, I should post this on Instagram, I should share this on LinkedIn, I should do a podcast about this and I have a content part of it too. So I like these three sections of my quick capture page, which is tasks, notes and content ideas and I just I'll be out walking and I just dump it and then I go back to my walk.

Megan Devito:

It's so good.

Megan Devito:

I use the notes app on my phone too and I think that, like in terms of stress or in terms of burnout, being able to it can be really stressful when you I had this idea I can't remember what it is and I lost it, but to be able to just keep track of those. I'm a huge list maker and I think and not I mean to help really prevent burnout to say this is what's on my list, and I always have said, like you need to put like the big rocks first, right. These are the things that have to be done, and then you can add the other things in if you want to. But being able to cross things off and say, oh look, I did enough, like I did my list today, I'm allowed to stop if I want to. I don't have to, but I am, I have permission, I give myself permission to stop because my list is done and that means I can go do something fun. Permission is a big part of it. It is, it's really permission. Permission is a big part of it.

Ellyn Schinke:

Well, and I think, too, like what you touched on about, like over, like overwhelm and it can be stressful to try to like, oh, what was that idea that I had? That is like I personally feel, like I talk about a lot in my work. Sustainable is, that is the core of fulfillment for them is being seen as and feeling successful, and so I found that there's like three core parts of that. To create sustainable success, you need sustainable systems, you need sustainable self-care and you need a sustainable mindset, and I think what we're just touching on right now is the sustainable systems part.

Ellyn Schinke:

I feel like one of the biggest things a lot of people do wrong and don't get me wrong, there's a lot of facets to sustainable systems, but I feel like the initial thing that a lot of people do wrong is they try to remember way too much crap, which is overwhelming as all hell if you are trying to remember everything. Remember that idea you came up with. Remember that thing that so-and-so told you to do. Remember that thing that so-and-so told you to do. Remember that idea that you thought of while you were having a conversation with that person. We try to remember way too much stuff, so that's one of the things is don't try to remember it, write it down in whatever place you write it down. And then the second piece is we store information in way too many different places. Think of right now like think of all of the places you store information. Right, where is information coming from? Like new tasks, new notes, new ideas, like new inputs? Where, where all, are you receiving that information from over the course of your day?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, I mean this is where we go right. We go to social media, we go to podcasts, we go to LinkedIn, we go to the news, we go to whatever else is on the radio, or your kids or the people you talk to. It's just like information overloaded all the time.

Ellyn Schinke:

Exactly.

Ellyn Schinke:

If we were all to just start listing that off. There's dozens of places that we receive information from, like emails, text messages, like conversations, like social media, like. All of these places are places that we're receiving information from. But I think where overwhelm starts to happen and where we start to not have sustainable systems and we waste time is we store that information. Oh, we got it via email. Okay, I'm just going to mark that emails on red, or I'm just going to keep it in my inbox and then I'll go back to it later, or I'll just keep that text message.

Ellyn Schinke:

And I'm still guilty of this. I'm imperfect with this, but, like the best thing we can do is, when that information comes in, put it in the same location, consolidate it all into one spot and that's why I'm such a big fan of digital systems is they're unlimited. Like paper systems, I'm like a reformed paperaholic, I feel like, because my parents used to literally make fun of me and how many like journals and notebooks I had and that I would like carry with me on trips. I would have like a backpack just of my like journals when we would go on vacation, like I used to be that kid. And now I'm like basically fully digital, because I've learned how much of a weight is lifted off of my brain when I don't have to think about. Okay, was this an email? Was this a text? Did somebody say it? Where did this information come from? It's just all in one place. So, like there's the sustainable systems part of it that I feel like a lot of us need, but there's also, like the sustainable self-care part of it, like we talked before about, like you've got to pour into yourself, but this is where a lot of us go wrong is our version of self-care is literally this laundry list of things that we feel like we have to do every day to be taking care of ourselves. That's not sustainable. I love there's a.

Ellyn Schinke:

I think it was James Clear who said this. He's one of those. Like I think he wrote Atomic Habits, yes, and I think what he said I'm paraphrasing here was something along the lines of we create our routines for our best day, but what we should do is we should create our routines for our worst day, because if you think about your routines on your best day, yeah, if you have an abundance of time to stretch for 15 minutes and then go on a 45-minute walk and then spend an hour into the gym and then take a nice leisurely morning to prepare your breakfast. If that's your best day where you have an abundance of time, cool, it's going to work on that day. But what about the day where you woke up late or your kid got sick in the morning, or like what do we do on those days? If our routines are built around the ideal day, we're going to feel like shit on the days where we're too busy to do the ideal routine.

Megan Devito:

Right and our routines are powerful. They really, I mean, they can help us get. They help us, obviously, on our best days, but the days that we need the most are our worst days, because it gives us something to hang on to that's stable and we know that brains love stability right, like that's going to keep us from feeling more anxious and more stressed out and more overwhelmed, and but that is such a mind. I mean, that is such like you're right. There's so much truth to that. Right, we do our. Oh my gosh, this is the best day. I get up, I do this, I do this, I do this, but then you know somebody throws up. What are you supposed to do about that? Or you know you have to go take. You have a flat tire. Whatever it is that happens that day.

Ellyn Schinke:

Yeah, and if your routines aren't, adaptable.

Ellyn Schinke:

Absolutely. That can throw you off tremendously if your routines aren't adaptable. I've really had to like my impulse when I'm like trying to think of what do I need in a routine, and I literally ran into this earlier this year. We were talking about routines in my membership and I asked myself what do I want to do in my morning routine? And that is a dangerous question to ask a lot of people, because if you ask what do you want to do, you're going to list like a dozen things that you want to do so I said, okay, scratch that, because that is not a routine that I can maintain day to day.

Ellyn Schinke:

I instead asked myself how do I want to feel, and I thought of the things that are going to make me feel that way. And that was a much more productive conversation around. Routines was to just focus on how do I want to feel. I want to feel rejuvenated and energized in my morning routine and I want to feel calm and relaxed in my evening routine. So then it's about like what things give me that? And not having like a routine where it's like okay, I'm going to spend 15 minutes doing this and 15 minutes doing this. Just give yourself a list like an array of activities you can choose from and anything you have time for on that day. Array of activities you can choose from and anything you have time for on that day. That's what you do. That is sustainable self-care. I think obviously, self-care has to sustain us and our lifestyles, but it also, in and of itself, has to be sustainable.

Ellyn Schinke:

And I think that is the part that a lot of us miss out on when it comes to self-care. If your self-care is the very thing that is stressing you out and burning you out, that's not self-care. We've got to flip that around in our brain.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and if it is at that point where it's stressing you out and burning you out, it's because you're not doing it and there's a reason you're not doing it right, like I'm not. If you're, I mean if your self-care is stressful, it's not self-care at all Just if that's not working for you. What made you think it was that I think there's always this misconception of what self-care is. It means I have to have yeah, I have to, I have to have nap time and I have to go to get a massage or I have to do whatever. It like the like fluffy self-care. But I'm like, no, that doesn't have to be it. I mean it might be like cooking a really great dinner for you.

Megan Devito:

It might be like no, I have to, I have to chop vegetables. I mean honest to God, chopping vegetables is major self-care for me.

Megan Devito:

It's meditative. It is amazing, See, and I'm like. You know what I'm stressed out. You just get me like some veggies. I'm going to chop those up. I'm going to feel good. Cooking is self-care for me.

Ellyn Schinke:

I do feel like cooking is self-care. I hate chopping vegetables and I do feel like that is the type A achieve for me. It feels like a waste of time so I always get vegetables like pre-chopped. But I like cooking because the act of. I feel like I'm so much slower when I cook a meal and then I eat the meal.

Ellyn Schinke:

The thing I find a lot of people that I work with in particular struggle with is how they define movement so like they don't they think of self-care in terms of like exercise, and exercise only counts in their brain If it's like going to the gym and literally sweating their asses off for like an hour or 90 minutes and if it's not, that it doesn't count. But what I've learned recently. I've been pouring a lot of energy and effort and intention into my health the last several months. Perhaps it's because I just turned 35.

Ellyn Schinke:

I really wanted to go into 35, just like thriving and firing on all cylinders, and one of the things that I learned in this health program that I was enrolled in was how and this is like literally science-backed people like what contributes to your metabolism and how efficiently your metabolism operates. It's called NEAT. I don't remember what the acronym stands for, but it's basically it's the non-exercise movement that we do actually contributes to our metabolic activity way more than exercise in and of itself does. So we're like literally talking about like steps like how much are you moving over the course of the day? And actually the ideal amount of steps is not 10,000 steps, it's more like 8,000.

Megan Devito:

Yes, 10,000 is like. Did you go on a five mile walk today, every day, without fail?

Ellyn Schinke:

Yeah, I did not, which honestly, even like what I've started to realize for myself is, and this has been an amazing thing for, like my hormones and like just all sorts of like those, those kinds of sides of stress, this has been amazing for me. I really haven't been hitting the gym a lot the last several months. I have been focusing on walking and hitting a step goal every single day and I go on a walk damn near every morning now. It's so good and it's so good and I think that has been a and it's literally been the last three months of me reprogramming that.

Ellyn Schinke:

When I started this health program that I did, it was okay, I'm going to follow her exercise program, I'm going to follow it to a T. And then, as soon as we had this conversation about non-exercise movement, it was again. It was like that switch flipped in my brain. I was just like wait, you mean I can be gentle with my body and it's going to give me more health advantages. It blew my mind but like that's what I needed. I needed that.

Ellyn Schinke:

I'm a scientist, I needed the data to tell me it is okay to do this. And as soon as I did, movement has been completely redefined in my brain, like the exercise now and hitting the gym now is like a cherry on top of a good day in terms of movement, and I feel like that's what a lot of us need when we think about movement. We need to redefine what counts as movement because, again, if your movement is the thing that is creating stress because you didn't go to the gym and you weren't in the gym long enough and you didn't push yourself hard enough that is literally negating what we're trying to create when it comes to stress and anxiety and burnout.

Ellyn Schinke:

Movement should feel good, first and foremost, and if it doesn't, if it's creating anxiety, that's not what we want. We've got to act that and we've got to get back to building the good foundations, which is what I've been focusing on a lot personally recently.

Megan Devito:

That's so good and that's what I mean a lot of times when we talk about movement and relieving anxiety and things like that, and people will say I don't like to exercise. It makes me feel more anxious, or I don't like to exercise, I don't like to be sweaty, and all this. I'm like what did you like to do when you were a kid? Like what did you play? Soccer? To go outside and play. Yeah, I like to play soccer. I like to go on bike rides. I like to go out and I like to rollerblade. I like to do you know, I like to play tag, I like to play kickball, I like to oh, my gosh, there's so many good ideas out there of people. I'm like, okay, well, what if you just did that?

Ellyn Schinke:

I need to find my rollerblades. I'm pretty sure I have them.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and I'm like I mean, if you need permission, I'm right here. Like go, your job tonight is to go outside and roll down a hill Like whatever it is go lay at the top and roll down the hill, walk back up, do it again. You've exercised.

Ellyn Schinke:

You know what I actually liked this? I'm a soccer player. I can't play soccer anymore. My knees are too bad. I wish I could. I've literally looked into joining adult leagues and every time I'm about to join one.

Ellyn Schinke:

I'm just like I can't do this. I'm going to end up in an urgent care before like sooner, sooner rather than later.

Ellyn Schinke:

Um, I know I was. That's the sad part about getting older. Is the my favorite things from when I was younger? I my literally my body can't take anymore, but I loved doing hill sprints. Am I a weirdo? Like I, because I played soccer. I hated. I don't like distance running. Like I've done a half marathon, I mean. Every time I think about doing a half marathon again, I'm just like I don't like it.

Ellyn Schinke:

But I love the sprint stop, sprint stop, sprint, stop. That's that's it feels like I'm playing soccer again, Like that's how I was always enjoyed energy and like running around. I actually dated a guy I haven't said this on a podcast ever, but I've said it to my friends I dated a guy who said it sounds so mean, but it made me absolutely cackle when he said it. He's like Ellyn, you're like a dog. The only time you like to run is when you have a ball to chase, and it's so accurate because that's I loved sports. I loved being able to exert myself while I was almost like distracted by something else, like chasing a ball or like yeah, I was that person and it's still. It absolutely makes me cackle because it sounds so mean, but it was so accurate.

Megan Devito:

Well, but it's true and it's what you liked when you were little, so it makes sense that you get excited about it now.

Megan Devito:

I mean it does be. So we go back to those things so often Like this is what I liked when I was little. If we would have trusted our little selves a little bit more, oh my God, would it not have made all the difference in the world. I mean, not that we I I think we're few and far between on the people who were really really. I guess it happens right. We do have people who have horrible, horrible home lives and situations, but for the most part the crap that we picked up, we just think that we misinterpreted. But if we would have learned that you know, it was okay to do these things that maybe weren't socially accepted or culturally accepted or whatever at that point, and we could have learned to trust ourselves, man, it would have been so much easier. I just wonder what it would have been like Like where did I pick something?

Megan Devito:

up. How did I interpret that? Not that it matters, I don't think so much learning that, but it's so interesting.

Ellyn Schinke:

I can pinpoint a lot of that for myself. But I know what you mean and I don't feel like when anybody ever says that they're not talking about, like you know, the rough parts of our childhood I don't think I feel like when we say that, we're literally saying like follow the joy, follow the things that like.

Ellyn Schinke:

I feel like when we're children, even though we would never articulate it this way. When we're children, we're so clear on what our values are when we're children and we just follow that. But, like, as we get older, we start to get so caught up in the shoulds and, frankly, this is like veering into the third part of the pillars, which is the sustainable mindset part. But as we start growing up, we get so caught up in the shoulds. I vividly remember conversations and it wasn't even conversations, it was just remarks that I heard from my family growing up about weight, some of which were redirected at me. I literally just posted something on Instagram about haters and somebody who made a shitty comment on one of my Instagram reels related to this.

Ellyn Schinke:

I know unrelated, but like, I remember hearing comments about weight and what was perceived as attractive, but vividly when it came to career and the careers we pursue, I vividly remember my dad saying something about oh, so-and-so's kid majored in X. I think it was like women's history or something like that. Right, so-and-so's kid majored in X. What are you going to do with that career?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, I can remember things like that too.

Ellyn Schinke:

Yeah, which like no freaking wonder. I went into science Like literally I got a sick twisted satisfaction out of when people would like, I would tell them oh, I'm a microbiology and genetics major. Those were my majors when I was in college.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, you got probably like ooh.

Ellyn Schinke:

I'm a science nerd and I loved it. But I think the thing I loved the most was I loved how people responded that, ooh, I literally got told by a random Home Depot employee when was in graduate school oh, you must be a glutton for punishment.

Ellyn Schinke:

That's what this random Home Depot employee said to me. When he's like well, you're from Seattle, why are you out here? I was like, oh, I'm in graduate school. He's like oh, what's your degree? I was like I'm getting a PhD in microbiology and immunology. And he literally goes you're a glutton for punishment. And there was a part of me that got a sick twisted satisfaction out of people responding to my major yeah, it's hard, man, it's really hard. It's smart.

Megan Devito:

Really hard. I'm so smart. You couldn't do it Home Depot man.

Ellyn Schinke:

Tell me I'm doing a good job, like again, it's like full circle moment I. But like that was not. Like when it really came down to it and I really dug deep and this is one of my favorite things to do with people I really dug deep into my values. I realized that fulfillment for me like the false sense of fulfillment came from Dr Ellyn and came from the sick twisted satisfaction that I got from people. But what true fulfillment felt like for me was feeling like I was growing and feeling like I was doing better. And that's why graduate school started driving me crazy, because I was literally, I felt like I was on a hamster wheel. I was doing the same thing over and over again. It wasn't working, which was a whole other issue. But like what am I? I'm not learning, I'm not growing.

Ellyn Schinke:

I remember meetings that I would go into, like meetings with people who were supposed to be my mentors and this is not directed at my two main PhD mentors. This was another lady. I remember one lady in particular who I had to present my research and she just tore it apart, just wouldn't even let me explain it before. She just ripped into it. And I remember going back to the back of the room after that and being like why am I here? I am in school to learn and I don't feel like I'm learning anything. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm learning anything. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm growing at all.

Ellyn Schinke:

And as soon as I started to get very, very clear on fundamentally what true fulfillment was for me, I think that's when I realized I can't pursue this anymore. Like I know my values to a T and I know I check in with my values on a month-to-month-to-month basis and I literally give myself like five stars to like one star to five star. I'm like how well do I feel like I'm embodying this value right now? And I feel like that is why a lot of us in our work, in our lives, don't feel good about the way that we're showing up. And that creates burnout emotionally, which I personally feel like is one of the most pervasive forms of burnout, is emotional burnout. It's my favorite form of burnout because I feel like it's the one that's so enlightening for so many people to learn about.

Ellyn Schinke:

But as soon as I knew my core values and I could check into them, emotional burnout has not been an issue for me since graduate school, because I have such crystal clear picture of what my values are, how I embody those values, I make space for emotional processing, which that's again where that journaling comes in, because when we don't understand, like that is that side of things and I feel like if people just stop shooting themselves with their values which, frankly, I think family is often a should value. Family is not one of my values. That might be a controversial thing to say, but I think a lot of people say their value is family. I don't think your value is family. I think your value is what you get out of your relationships with your family, and for me, I get belonging out of my relationship with my family and my friends. That's my value. It's not family. I could care less whether or not you are my family or not.

Ellyn Schinke:

If you give me a sense of belonging, then you are important in my world, and I feel like that is the stuff that we really need to break down and really really get very clear on is what are the shoulds, what are the should values we are imposing upon ourselves? Because if we can identify those and ditch them and really figure out what our true core values are, you will have a sustainable mindset that is going to help stave off. That is going to, I always say, become burnout proof. That's going to help you become burnout proof for the rest of your life. If you get clear on your values, if anybody does anything from this, that is what I would recommend.

Megan Devito:

Like one giant mic drop. I'm like how many quotes can I pull from one episode?

Ellyn Schinke:

I mean I can just be your social media contact for a while.

Megan Devito:

No, but seriously, I'm like okay, there's so much in here, so much in this episode that, yeah, like a million things that I can say right now, but really, when someone wants to connect with you, where do they find you? Because you have so you are golden, my friend Like, where do people find you?

Ellyn Schinke:

Well, I am CoachEllen everywhere. I have a very German last name that I do not use. It rhymes with stinky fun fact, but I'm CoachEllyn everywhere and my first name is spelled E L L Y N. So, coach E L L Y N, I'm on Instagram. I'm really starting to get more and more into LinkedIn. So, if you like I, what I like about LinkedIn is like what's the one website you could pull up at work and, like your boss could come up to you and like, not be mad about you having pulled up in the background LinkedIn. So I'm starting to be on LinkedIn, it's true. It's true, like Instagram, they might get a little mad. Facebook, they might get a little mad.

Megan Devito:

But LinkedIn, that is a productive social media.

Ellyn Schinke:

She's being professional today. Yes, yes. So I'm getting more and more into LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn and then CoachEllyn. com is my website. I have a free subscriber hub on my website for anybody who opts into anything, and I have. So, yeah, coach Ellyn everywhere Again. E-l-l-y-n.

Megan Devito:

And I will add all of those links to the end of the show notes and on YouTube and all the places. But, oh my gosh, thank you for spending time with me today. I appreciate it so much and so much great information Wow, like I'm gonna go back and take notes.

Ellyn Schinke:

Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast Great way to start off my day today.

Megan Devito:

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Before you go, be sure to subscribe and leave a review so others can easily find this resource as well. And, of course, if you're ready to feel calm, to stop overthinking and have a lot more fun, you can go to the show notes, click the link and talk to me about coaching. I'll talk to you soon.