More Than Anxiety

Ep 95 - Narrative Transformational Therapy with Elle Key

• Megan Devito • Episode 95

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In episode 95  I'm talking with Elle Key, a therapist  who specializes narrative transformational coaching. 

She shares how she uses group therapy sessions and storytelling to help her clients create coping mechanisms and find out where they're stuck, by noticing their body language, emotions and reactions.

And, if you've been wondering if therapy or coaching is right for you, we're also clarifying the differences between coaching and therapy, and highlighting how each can help you process emotions, feel less anxious and more confident.

Enjoy the episode.

#therapy #coaching #somatic #womenhelpingwomen #anxietyrelief #storytelling #trauma

You can connect with Elle on Instagram or
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Check out her podcast, The Phoenix Effect

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Thanks for listening!

You know you're overwhelmed, burned out, sick to death of work but also trying to do everyting for everyone at home. TAKE THIS QUIZ to find out why you're so overwhelmed and what to do about it.

Megan Devito:

Welcome to the More Than Anxiety Podcast. I'm Megan Devito and I help ambitious women break out of the anxiety cycle that keeps them frustrated and stuck. Get ready for a lighthearted approach to managing anxiety that will change what you think, how you feel and what you believe about yourself. This podcast is full of simple steps, a lot of truth talk and inspiration to take action, s o you walk away feeling confident, calm, and inspiration to take action. Let's get to it.

Megan Devito:

Hey there, welcome to episode 95 of the More Than Anxiety podcast. My name's Megan, I'm a life coach and I help women with big goals, big stress and big anxiety work through those feelings in their body and be able to step forward and move towards the things that they really want. I also have the opportunity to be able to introduce you to other people who can help you work through anxiety, work through really big emotions, and this week you get to meet Elle Key. Elle is a therapist in the Northeast part of the United States. She works using a narrative intervention where she helps her clients tell stories about what might have happened in their past that made them feel unheard, not seen or dismissed, so that they can let go of that anxiety and move forward. She does incredible work and I'm so excited to be able to introduce you to her in this episode. Enjoy Great

Megan Devito:

.

Elle Key:

Okay, sure, so I'm a psychotherapist in Maine and New Hampshire and I just finished a certification in narrative-focused trauma care and somatics mind-body coaching, so I can treat anxiety as my favorite thing more effectively. Yeah, so I'm going to come at you today with a narrative lens when we're talking about anxiety. At you today with a narrative lens when we're talking about anxiety.

Megan Devito:

Great, then let's do it, let's just talk about it. So anxiety is your favorite topic, which is funny because, like, we fall into these favorite topics and I wouldn't say it's my favorite topic, but it's the one that I know most about, because it was kind of the story of my life. So how did it end up being your favorite topic?

Elle Key:

Oh, same way.

Elle Key:

Right, oh yeah, yeah, lived experience for sure. Yeah, definitely. I experienced anxiety as a young child and I just found my favorite clients where I enjoyed the work the most. They were usually presenting with anxiety and relationship issues and then, when I started doing the narrative focused trauma care, it had so many more ah - ha's. It made so much more sense why I would be showing up in the world so anxious, and I feel like it gives me the tools that I need to help clients make those same connections.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, tell me more what narrative-focused trauma care is?

Elle Key:

So it's a group of people who will come together and they'll read a story of harm with the facilitator there, a story of harm that took place between the ages of 4 and 18, so sometime between your formative years, and the group will speak into the story and offer care to the person. In a way, they didn't receive care the first time, and it's done with a facilitator, and so there's a lot of teaching and coaching involved. But what happens is, within the group, not only are you receiving care, but your style of relating will show up and how you have learned to cope with whatever harm that happened. It's playing out in the group, which is fascinating. So, let's say, the harm happens.

Elle Key:

You're a child and maybe you recall an interaction where your father was yelling at you. In those moments your brain is making all of these rapid changes and it's trying to figure out how can I not experience harm like this again? And so it learns how to be in their family of origin in a way that's going to cause less harm. So if they don't like the yelling, maybe they'll learn to go quiet, or maybe they'll learn to attack back, right. And so whatever that style was that they learned in that story of harm shows up in the group and it's also telling us the pain points that's happening in a person's life and that's usually why people want to go to therapy or to go to coaching is because of those pain points.

Megan Devito:

Yeah. So let me be clear. It's a story prompt that you have. Like you start a story. I'm imagining this as kind of like an elementary school thing, where you would sit down and say let's write a story together and you start with a prompt and then everybody comes in and, as they talk about or share what their experience was or add to the story, you can pull from that maybe their experiences or how they would react. Am I getting that right?

Elle Key:

Right, yeah, it's a prompt. It happens in the group dynamic.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, okay, that is really cool. And I'm wondering, like my first question is when they come in and they are in this setting where they're creating this story, do you notice them, i n the beginning, like my first thought is so if that were me, I would have this I know what I'm supposed to do or supposed to say, thought. L ike okay, I think the correct reaction would be this how do you get them to a place where they're being really authentic with you during the story writing or the storytelling?

Elle Key:

Okay, so you're saying I'm going to try to get nail the story group right? Like I'm going to try to do this just right.

Megan Devito:

Well, I'm picturing it as if you're coming and you're telling a story and it gets to a place. Maybe I don't understand the narrative portion, but I'm really intrigued with this. So we have a storytelling going on and it's how I'm seeing how you react in the story, like what your response is. Sometimes I think people maybe this is me from coaching or from teaching, where we know what we're supposed to say Like I'm supposed to say this, but inside, but can you read that in the way the story is, how does it all play out?

Elle Key:

Yeah, that's such a great question. So let's say a person wants to say the right answer, we're also paying attention to their bodies, which is where my somatic and embodiment type of thing comes in, and so you're going to notice the incongruence and so we would just draw attention to it. Like, tell me what's happening. Like I see that maybe your face is really tight or, you know, maybe your words are very stilted. Can you tell me more about what's happening inside of you? But I would say, if somebody is wanting to show up and give the right answers, well, we found your style of relating, we have found the way that you've tried to reduce the harm in the world, and so that's where we can go with it.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, like that's really fun, cause I can see, like I can picture a few people. Um, you know, when you're talking with people and you're asking them questions and you can tell that they're overthinking it, right? T hey're just overthinking it like, oh, what does she want me to say? And my answer would always be like whoa, whoa, whoa, t here's no right answer. I just want to know what you're thinking, like. I don't, y ou don't have to tell me the right answer. Just what's the first thing that comes to your head. And so I love that there's that pull into like oh, it seems like you might be overthinking this, or I can tell that all of a sudden, you're very tense, or you look like you're ready to bolt or whatever's going on. Okay, that is really fun.

Elle Key:

And then we want to know, like where did you learn to do that? How did that help you as a child to learn to overthink?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, so the story goes on and they finish the story and then after, i s it a continual process where the narrative is like the next week we have a different story, or is it you do the story once and then you build from that? How does it all play out?

Elle Key:

Yeah, I mean, there's different ways to do it. You can do it like intensively, where everybody will read the same story twice. Everybody will cycle through, like if there's six people, we each take time to read each six stories and then we start over, and you can do it week to week. Or you can do it in a whole weekend, where we just spend a whole lot of time together all at once.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, so it definitely in a group setting, then, where it's not an individual like you, or do you do it individually with people?

Elle Key:

I can do it individually, but I really feel like the group is going to give you the most powerful experience and bring about the most change. I really feel the one-to-one can be very limiting. It's incredible what can happen in a group, especially in our society now we're so disconnected, right.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and that disconnection I think there's. So it is funny the idea of, I think sometimes people get tripped up about I don't know if I want to share my story with people. And then for me personally, I remember when I started telling my story, when I started saying, " hey, you know, when I was really little I had terrible health anxiety all the time. It started with my dad going on a business trip and all of these things, and I remember telling them gradually like how it had progressed and all of these things I was afraid of and I seriously thought I was the only person in the world that had ever had these ridiculous fears. And suddenly people are like no way, you thought that too. And I was like, no, there's no way you could have thought that exact same crazy thought that I thought. But there really is so much power in bringing people together, so I love that. That connection is there. Do you work? What age group do you normally work with? Or like is it men, women, adults, children, everyone?

Elle Key:

Well, I want them 18 plus, Because we do so much story child of origin work, there's not enough space in there if you're under 18. But yeah, we can go all the way up to as old as you want to go. I haven't found a lot of people over 65 to be super interested in therapeutic work yet my favorite ages is probably 30 to 50. A lot of 50 year old women are really at that place in their life where they're ready to make some changes. They've lived part of their life and they're like this isn't working for me anymore. But I love 20s, 30s, whatever people, anybody open. If you want to do this work, they're my, they're my people. Yeah.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and there's a fantastic opening. I think that that has been as much as social media has given us, this disconnect and it's given us this, like all of these different ways, that anxiety is showing up for us and making us feel horrible. I think, really, the openness of people sharing I'm going to therapy has been so amazing. Just people saying, no, really you should go, it's okay, right, it's the new thing to do, it's to do your own work.

Megan Devito:

It really is. It's like the little black dress of self-care now. It's like oh, you don't go to therapy why People kind of give you the like oh, maybe you should.

Megan Devito:

Yeah it is really, really good. And I have to say that I was one that I went to therapy one time when I was in college. It was like the worst segment of my life and my mom's like you need to go talk with somebody. And it was the nineties. And so I went to the school psychology department or the psychiatry department and they had some sweet college student doing probably an internship and I went for I don't know a little bit of time and I was like this is making me so much worse. I had no idea. And nobody went to college. I mean, nobody went to therapy when I was in college. I mean it was 1992 or three or four or whatever. No, what was it? 97, I guess? And yeah, I was like I'm not doing that. That was awful. And so I never went again. I was like no, that's not for me. And then recently I went to therapy and I was like, oh my gosh, like can I just come have coffee with you once a week and hang out?

Elle Key:

Yeah, I think there was so much. The past few was like there's some kind of pathology to it or there's something wrong with you if you need therapy and I think now we're understanding no, this is the human experience and therapy is a place where we're just learning how to be in our bodies and to show up in the world the way we want to show up in the world, and therapy is one way to do that.

Megan Devito:

Rather than something so wrong with you, right, it's kind of that old thing back when medication first came out and people would say like, oh, are you on Prozac? And everybody's like, yeah, I take Prozac, and then this other person takes this. Yeah, so yeah. But so back to this idea of being in their bodies. This is something that when I'm coaching someone, I guess like just to share my process with you, because I know I asked you how you would feel about like saying this is what therapists do, this is what coaches do, my process is always like okay, let's talk about how your body feels and how we can calm this down. Let's talk about exhaling. Let's talk about noticing that when you feel that way, we really need to not believe anything that we're thinking. Let's just practice feeling anxious and letting it be okay to feel anxious. What can we do? Just say, oh, this is how it feels. So one of the things I like to do is have them close their eyes and say tell me what it looks like, tell me what it sounds like, tell me what it tastes like. I mean, even with adults. I want you to get out some crayons or colored pencils. Steal your kids art supplies. I want you to draw it and I just want you to like look at it so that we can make this something tangible instead of it's just some big, scary monster floating out in the sky, and let's just feel it, and then we'll talk about like, oh well, okay, what do you think? Like when you're feeling that, what's going on in your head? What if that's not true? Let's talk about. You know, what do we have to do to calm down your body so you can think clearly?

Megan Devito:

And one of the questions I always get is well, what did somebody ask me last week? They said so, I want to work with you. Are you a psychiatrist? I'm like, not at all, no, not even close. So my explanation has always been I feel like coaches are more action-oriented, goal-oriented, where therapists are really about helping you heal. And I'm like, if you are coming to me because you've had an intense trauma, I am not your girl, not because I don't sympathize with you, not because I couldn't make you feel maybe better, but I am not that person. So I'm like do you need to talk to a therapist about that? But I'm interested to see, from your perspective, where's the intersection and where's the difference.

Elle Key:

Yeah, what a good question. I love what you're doing with those interventions because I feel like anxiety starts because they didn't learn to tolerate emotion. Growing up, their parents weren't able to embrace whatever emotion it is, they learned to suppress it, and so you're kind of bringing that back to the surface and showing them no, I can tolerate this and I'm going to be okay. And I think you said it right, it's very goal, goal oriented in mind. So somebody is coming to you.

Elle Key:

I want to be able to move past my anxiety so I can go do this particular thing. My body just won't let me go and apply for that job or have another baby or whatever it is. But with therapy, yeah, like if, if it's deeply embedded and it's not just anxiety is tripping me up in this one area, it's kind of global and it's kind of been ongoing to the point where their lives are not no longer functional. That's when you kind of want a therapist to kind of do some deep diving into past trauma. But what you're doing is you're giving them the tools so that therapy can be more useful. Yeah, right, like learning able to tolerate those feelings that are going to come up in therapy is critically important to how quickly they'll get better.

Megan Devito:

And it has been a really fun thing to be able to piggyback with different therapists to different things. I worked with a girl she was younger, she was 12-ish, and she was going to a therapist who did horse therapy. And I'm like tell me all the things that you did, Tell me how this works, Tell me what I mean. So it was so intriguing and so I would love to know. I just I want to hear can you tell a story without, Obviously, without breaking any confidentiality, like where you saw this progress with the narrative storytelling? Because I think there's something really fun. It almost disconnects it from, I mean, even though you're working with someone's past and someone's like self and who they are. I like the idea of it being almost a story, like you could make it about someone else, but you are definitely having the reactions and healing from it. So can you tell a story of something like tell me something amazing.

Elle Key:

Yeah, absolutely Okay.

Megan Devito:

So sorry, I kind of put you on the spot, on the spot with that.

Elle Key:

Yeah, I would say imagine someone's showing up in their group. Maybe they're really quiet and reserved. Their answers are very short, very concise. It seems like they may be carrying a lot of shame. They don't want to contribute to the conversation. They're afraid whatever I have to contribute might not matter or it's the wrong thing to say. But then when it's their turn to tell the story, it's making total sense why they would show up that way and people can start to speak into that and show them.

Elle Key:

Okay, when you were a little child and you were experiencing maybe an adult that was telling you to be quiet all the time, you learn I don't have anything good to offer. It's starting to correct a past experience and the narrative changes to there was something wrong with me that I was always quiet or shy to. Oh, I had to be shy, I had to be quiet, and it's actually okay if I can show up and take up a little space. And so you see the progress of maybe a very contained person to maybe somebody who starts to open up, their shoulders, loosen, because they are receiving the love and care that they needed and they're seen as a child. That was good, that had to learn to be this way that they're ashamed of, and so, instead of seeing themselves as there's something wrong with me, it's no, I'm. I'm really good, I'm great as I am. Like the shame is removed.

Megan Devito:

So good, I love that. And the story I don't know, the story thing is just fascinating. I think it's. I was a teacher for a long time, so I'm probably like, oh, stories, this is a great thing because you do see things come out, even when kids write, right, like I'm thinking. I guess past life for me is definitely seeing the things that I could see when kids would write stories. So that is, that's huge. So do you notice it being like.

Megan Devito:

I know, generally when I'm talking with somebody and I'll say, okay, you feel this feeling in your chest, let's talk about like, if you close your eyes and you put your hands on it, how does it feel? And then I always get bad and I'm like, yeah, but that's not a thing, let's talk about what bad is, and so we break it down. Sometimes I'm whipping out the emotion wheel. I'm like point or tell me what this is, and one of the things that I've noticed so often is that bad means I haven't.

Megan Devito:

Well, first of all, I've never really paid attention to it because I hate the way it feels. So I try not to think about it at all, or it ends up being like a giant knot of a ton of different emotions. I feel scared, I feel frustrated, I feel overwhelmed, I feel anxious, and one of the things I've tried to do is say what if we? I know technically anxiety is an emotion, but I'm like, can we make it a feeling and not as an emotion, Because what seems to work for me is saying anxiety is a feeling and we have all these other emotions here. Is this something that I am making up? Have you noticed that? Like bad is.

Elle Key:

No, you, yeah, you're summing it up so articulately and perfectly yes, so as children right, they're having all of these feelings, they're learning to suppress them, and the more they suppress them, it's like this reservoir is now developed and so it's now showing up in their body and they can only put the word bad to it. But all emotions start in the body. It's really just like different sensations all coming together, and so to start with the body is to really start where they are, with where they're feeling originated, and it's like you're kind of parsing through and getting down to well, what's really wrong? What's going on?

Megan Devito:

Yeah, it is. That is one thing where I'm like, I think, when you really sit with that feeling and know where it is and know how it is, and when you actually get to the point where you can say name that emotion, like what is that, like how does that feel, and they, it is funny, like how many words will come out of that one spot.

Elle Key:

Yeah, and if you can develop that body awareness, they can understand sooner. Oh, this means I'm feeling angry. This means I'm feeling scared. They can decide what they want to do with that. They have so much more choice.

Megan Devito:

Anger is an interesting one, yeah, super fun. They have so much more choice. Anger is an interesting one, yeah, super fun. Yeah, and that snap anger, or that constant feeling of anger.

Elle Key:

Yeah, and so many people feel overwhelmed by it or ashamed of it, or they don't know what should I even do with that, like they're not supposed to have it when it's such an important emotion.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, yeah, and trying to figure out how to. Trying to figure out how to be like no, what if it's okay that you're angry? What if it's good that you're angry?

Elle Key:

Right. Thank goodness that you're angry. We need people to be angry over children being sexually trafficked, right. We need that angry energy to bring justice to the world, or to protest something that feels like somebody is crossing a boundary or you're keeping me from something that's important to me. It's a flag going off to say pay attention, this matters.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and that shame. I think that shame is such another one that you've mentioned that like I had so much shame inside. But then, like when you know I'm angry and all of a sudden I'm ashamed that I'm angry, and then I'm angry, that I'm ashamed that I'm angry, it's just layers and layers and layers, and then like stick, peeling the stickers off. So, with the narratives that you do and finding these different emotions, is it like how's the process of recovery for people like with that?

Elle Key:

Yeah, well, I love that you're bringing up shame. Shame is like the thing that like locks the trauma into place. Whatever story of harm that they're bringing, it's usually layered and cloaked with a lot of shame, and so bringing it to a group, it's super vulnerable and exposing. It's also an opportunity to have that shame be met with kindness and tenderness, and then the shame can recede. They can see, okay, I can bring this thing, this hard feeling, and people can be with me in it and they're not going to go away. I can still be met with tenderness and care, and so the shame recedes and then they're able to work with the emotions and what happened.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and that thought of people will still be there, they're not going to go away, yeah so much trauma gets locked in with shame and isolation.

Elle Key:

They felt that feeling and they were alone as children, and so if they can get back to there as an adult with people, that's where healing happens. They're not alone anymore, which is why I'm a big group person.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, I love that. I think it's a really fresh perspective on group too, because it is, I mean, even that idea of like coming to a group of shame. Like you said. That's a big thing to share with people, because there's a vulnerability there Like, oh my gosh, I'm going to like tell all these people all these things about myself and to be just brave enough to be able to go in there and say, no, I'm going to tell you this, like this is how bad I want this and this is how much I'm willing to go, like how far I'm willing to go for it. So it's empowering.

Elle Key:

Yes, and anxiety, right, it's coming up as you kind of think about oh no, I have to bring the story, what are people going to think of me? And so if they can work with a coach like you, they can learn to like, expand their tolerance to that feeling, to get themselves to a place where they can experience that healing, which is why we need coaches.

Megan Devito:

Yeah, and this is why we need therapists. We don't have to argue on social media anymore. We've solved every problem in the world. Look at that. But there was someone speaking of social media, though I always seem to go back to this topic and I don't mean to pick on social media because I do love it but I did see, and I cannot remember specifically who it was. It was someone who. Their theory was that all anxiety is technically a form of separation anxiety like separation from yourself, separation from your parents, separation. I've spent far too much time thinking about this. First of all, I'm like is that really true? I don't know that. I think that's really true, but it was a very interesting thought process that they had about. Well, you're either separated from your own inner child, or you're separated from your parents, or separated from who you want to be, and all of those things are causing anxiety in a different way.

Elle Key:

And I'm like maybe, well, there's an idea.

Megan Devito:

I know I was like maybe, well, there's an idea. I know I was like well, that seems.

Elle Key:

I like how Hilary Jacobs and Bell said it. It's basically a suppression of emotions over time, so you can stay in connection with your caregiver. That makes sense to me, hilary Jacobs, let's not Bell.

Megan Devito:

That actually makes a lot more sense to me too. It was just funny. I like to pick people's brains who have different perspectives than me, because I'm like I'm not sure if I like. I like the theory of making it that simple, but it does not feel accurate to me, but I think the suppressed emotions does, because it is such a knot of 10 different things at once for people.

Elle Key:

Right, Like if you're a child and you're afraid of something. But you can see that that irritates your mom or she's, s he wants you to stop because she's busy. She doesn't really have like the bandwidth for that. Like you need to stay in connection with mom so you don't act afraid, you stop voicing that that keeps you in connection. I wouldn't call that separation anxiety.

Megan Devito:

No, no, it's connection. Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's where I'm sure he has his own way of thinking about it. But I was like man, I would love to talk to that guy and see where he is, like, where he separated, but his, I think that who was it? I don't know, I can't remember, but yeah, it was an interesting. It was an interesting concept that he brought to. So, do you work with people, like, specifically in? Are you in person? Are you online, like, how do you work with people?

Elle Key:

Yeah, I do both. So I can. Because I'm finished the certification for narrative focused trauma care, I can technically see people as a coach nationwide, but I also do in person. I do a lot of online work because I'm a mom and I find that convenient, but I do in person on the weekend intensively with people and I also have a podcast. If people are interested in hearing narrative therapy in action, right, they can hear us do story work on a podcast if they were interested in hearing how it works.

Megan Devito:

I am, for sure, interested in hearing how this works. So yeah, and I am going to check out your podcast. I think you said it's Phoenix Rising, is that correct?

Elle Key:

The Phoenix Effect podcast.

Megan Devito:

The Phoenix Effect. That's right. I'm sorry, I'm going to put that in the show notes. So the Phoenix Effect Podcast and that will be in the show notes. And then, what is your website? How do people find you if they want to connect?

Elle Key:

I can be found at courageousstepscounseling. com and people can reach out to me there. I'm on Instagram and TikTok as therapywithElle. Yeah, people can reach out anytime.

Megan Devito:

Great, I love the way that you're doing this. I love it. To me, this is like the first time I've heard about this kind of therapy, with, like the narrative, and I think that's such a fun way and such a it feels safe and it feels like it feels different.

Elle Key:

Yeah, that's why I wanted to do it. It had like such a different way to bring healing than so many other different modalities. Yeah, I'm glad that you are interested.

Megan Devito:

I am very interested. I'm going to check it out and I can't wait to hear more about it. So what else do people need to know about you before we go? What else would you like for them to know?

Elle Key:

need to know about you before we go. What else would you like for them to know? Well, I am opening story groups. If anyone thinks that this kind of healing is something that they would like to check out, I will be offering them in person and online if they want to do it.

Megan Devito:

Thank you for doing such fun and incredible and really important work. Thanks for having me on.

Megan Devito:

Yeah especially in this crazy world with all of the anxiety. Right now it's so high and I feel like everybody's partnering up, and I say this every week, but we are going to knock this out, and I mean, the more people who know how to do it, the more people who can help other people do it, and that's how it's done. So thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the More Than Anxiety podcast. Before you go, be sure to subscribe and leave a review so others can easily find this resource as well. And, of course, if you're ready to feel calm, to stop overthinking and have a lot more fun, you can go to the show notes, click the link and talk to me about coaching. I'll talk to you soon.